Butcher's Block... worthless.

[Calib0s]

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

Moving my soda from the back of the fridge to the front might make it easier to get a drink tomorrow, but not in any meaningful way.

[OmegaSinX]

It did become less complex in the Enmity generation department. =P

Less complex for under geared tanks. Its hard to mess up enmity if your equally geared with your party members unless your really slow at pushing buttons or not using enmity rotations at all... Or if you have really fat fingers and cant hit right buttons :P

[Traek]

Okay, in what way has the method of gaining enmity changed?
Did they change the combos needed to gain enmity? No.
All they did was increase the amount of enmity gained.
The gameplay itself didn't change, all that happened was the gameplay became more effective.

There was never any skill towards gaining enmity.
Heck there was nothing you could do once enmity was lost other than continue doing your combo as you did before.
There was no skill from the start, and it is wrong to suggest there is a loss of skill after the changes.

I agree with what you are saying. That said, I know I, and I think other people do miss the enmity meta game that used to exist in MMOs. I don't think this so much related to the skill of the tank, however a bad one would be far more noticeable as people get face raped. There is no battle between healer/DD aggroe these days, and therefore less smart play. This also relates to loss of things like CC in pulls, and healer having to make smart decisions on single casts/AoEs. Further increasing our enmity just pushes forward face rolling along our keyboard. It is far more forgiving, and further closes the gap of bad/good tanks and their decision making.

[Leiron]

Good tanks differ themselves from bad tanks beyond enmity generation.
Anyone can hold agro.
What makes a tank good, is how quickly they pick up adds, interrupts, silences, stuns, knowing the mechanics.
All of which has far greater consequences.

[Calib0s]

I agree with what you are saying. That said, I know I, and I think other people do miss the enmity meta game that used to exist in MMOs. I don't think this so much related to the skill of the tank, however a bad one would be far more noticeable as people get face raped. There is no battle between healer/DD aggroe these days, and therefore less smart play. This also relates to loss of things like CC in pulls, and healer having to make smart decisions on single casts/AoEs. Further increasing our enmity just pushes forward face rolling along our keyboard. It is far more forgiving, and further closes the gap of bad/good tanks and their decision making.

I hear you. However, I just don't think that dynamic was ever really a part of this game, even before 2.1.

I also think a lot of those issues are more a result of poor encounter design rather than anything to do with enmity generation. i.e. no trash pack is life threatening for a well-played tank, so there's no good reason to use CC, healers don't really have any significant decisions to make, etc.

[Gamemako]

still...have you ever lost aggro in 2.0? (don't count rare occasion when someone (bardXD) pulls before you can do anything) I think the answer is no. so what changes?

I had the luxury of playing with +1 MNK, SMN, BLM with ilvl50-55 gear, where simply smashing Overpower will get aggro taken from you in a hurry. I continued to gear this way for spiritbonding. Poor execution will result in you losing aggro, and the margin of error was pretty damn small. To claim that enmity was lolnp before and no different now is pretty godsdamned disingenuous.

That's a horrible analogy. Just because square tweaked Defiance and Shield oath doesnt mean everyone will start facerolling Turn 5 Now.

We were talking about enmity, and yes, people are facerolling enmity for everything now. It is an exact analogy. There is no way you can lose aggro without completely failing to touch a mob.

Theres more to End Game Raiding than just holding threat.

Red herring. "But there's other stuff!" doesn't justify trivialization of enmity, just as the existence of PLD would not justify the outright deletion of WAR. Well, unless you're arguing that all tank players are too stupid to deal with enmity while tanking, in which case I question your good sense.

The Changes made it easier for a Tanks who are equally Geared or Outgeared their party members. Still possible to pull threat off of undergeared tank and anything Pre-50.

Enmity is easier while leveling due to the gear sync and early access to high-enmity abilities (whereas DPS are still getting their primary attacks up to level 50), not to mention that it isn't (and never was) possible to pull aggro off a tank pre-50. There is also a base strength modifier unaffected by weapon damage which prevents anything but the most extreme undergearing from being a problem.

If you ask me, the change made tanking more Future Proof, because as the DPS margin continues to grow between tanks and pure DPS, it would become a problem since PLD and WAR both sacrifice % of their Damage. This was a re-evaluation of how fast DPS threat scaled.

That would be a misunderstanding of enmity in general. Potency does not scale differently and primary stats do not scale differently as you level. Tanks will continue to have a large enmity-potency lead, and the primary stats on armors and weapons mean that tanks always have a strength value proportional to DPS.

Good tanks pick up adds quickly and efficiently. Good tanks keep the appropriate buffs/debuffs up at all times.

Except that both of these were beholden to the enmity subgame that was mutilated by 2.1. You needed room to put down enough enmity that you could get Maim up, and if you didn't have enough of a cushion, you'd be chasing after the mobs that decided the DoT-spamming SMN looked tasty while you were smacking something else. If you were collecting adds, you had to build enmity on those adds and gather others at the same time, while those others would immediately head for the healer or other DPS. People view enmity as trivial in 2.0 when they were overgeared with 150 hours of practice grabbing every opponent and putting exactly the right amount of enmity on each to hold it, just like people who talk about how loleasy Twintania is when it was previously thought nearly impossible.

Because DPS and healers scale better than us

Can stop right there, because they don't.

What makes a tank good, is how quickly they pick up adds, interrupts, silences, stuns, knowing the mechanics.

Trololo interrupts, because WAR totally can interrupt more than a DPS. And man, knowing game mechanics, like knowing how to sit in one spot for the entirety of Titan HM and never moving an inch? SO PRO.

[Leiron]

Trololo interrupts, because WAR totally can interrupt more than a DPS. And man, knowing game mechanics, like knowing how to sit in one spot for the entirety of Titan HM and never moving an inch? SO PRO.

And there is so much skill hitting the same 3 buttons in sequence over and over again right?
Or hitting Overpower over and over for AOE agro right?
Or Flash?

To even suggest that there was any skill in gaining enmity is completely false.
Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
This is a case of complaining for the sake of complaining.

[Gamemako]

Tanks never had to manage agro. They only had to generate it.
DPS were the ones that had to manage it

If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank. Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

[Puresin]

After playing with the new emnity now for a good day I have a few observations:

I used BB only as an opening combo for extra threat at the start of a fight with unchained and berserker. After that SP>SE>SP>SE repeat. I noticed SE would fall off if I tried to weave some BB in between. I honestly didnt need it on Ultima EX or any of the new dungeons. I only used it as an opener (and for picking up certain adds like in Garuda EX)

It has its purpose. I'm not unhappy, I would have preferred SE debuff to last 20 seconds the same as SP, but oh well.

[Leiron]

If you had DPS considering enmity, then you are a bad tank.

So if you are a tank that does everything right, but you have a GC ilvl 50 weapon and they have relic +1 and pull agro, you're a bad tank?
Blanket statements are bad.

Sorry but, enmity generation is something a tank does, its not something they manage.
They don't raise, lower or siphon.
They mash their combos/AOE ability and generate it.

Enmity is not their job, it's yours. Do you see the word "enmity" plastered all over MNK abilities? Is it anywhere at all? Nope. MNK's job is to be hammering opponents as hard as possible without getting smashed by random-target attacks (you know, like the plumes that are their job and NOT yours).

Pardon but in EQ, enmity was not listed in any of a DPS' abilities, but what do you know, DPS had to help manage threat.
This was the same in WoW's early days of tanking, where management of agro was really beyond the tank.

It fell down to the DPS to hold back and not generate too much enmity.
I fail to see why you are so intent on arguing the matter.


Tank's dont do squat for enmity management.
They don't decide anything, let's not pretend they do.