New Inner Beast DR.. the end all be all skill

[Judge_Xero]

Right. Vengeance will be 30% and IB is 20%.

[Paikis]

And if it did that, they might as well just get rid of the +hp and +healing on it entirely and turn it into a clone of Shield Oath.

Except it isn't the same thing at all. We have abilities which work based on our max HP. Yes, +25 health/healing received has the same effect as 20% DR, but they do it in a different way.

Either way, why would that be a bad idea? Then the two tanks could start from the same area. Paladin still gets better cooldowns in general, and better damage reduction over time. Warrior are better for a single large attack on a 20 second timer, anything that has large amounts of continuous incoming damage (turn 4 says hi!) is going to vastly favour Paladins. The miniscule amount of self healing WAR has left (and lets not forget that Bloodbath and LOLMercy Stroke are cross class abilities) after Inner Beast is gutted is not going to make up for that difference in healing received, and that's before we even start on Enhanced Convalescence or a semi-spammable Stoneskin.

So yes, I do think that it should be +25%.

EDIT: Please for the love of god will you people stop saying that the loss of the healing bonus is not worth the healing from IB? The cases where this is true are so ridiculously rare that I'm amazed this myth is still touted as a fact.

[Anyer]

First of all, I play both PLD and WAR. I don't know why lot of people keep comparing the skills of both and saying things like "this needs to be buffed so it is like XXXXX skill of PLD".

If both classes have all their skills do the same thing but with different names, then what is the pout of having 2 jobs? Just delete one and problem solved, not make one the clone of the other with different names....

WAR was fine, the only thing it needed was a bit of mitigation added to lets say, defiance, not as much as the PLD obviously cause the hp increase, but just a bit and everything could be working good.

I hope they don't become just clones of each other or that one became so op that the other is forgotten or worst, that we enter the classic "QQ my class sucks and you buffed the other" then that classes get buffed and the other nerfed, the other class QQ again and so on in an endless nerd/buff rain of patches.

[Kitru]

Except it isn't the same thing at all. We have abilities which work based on our max HP. Yes, +25 health/healing received has the same effect as 20% DR, but they do it in a different way.

You're not really a "math" kind of person, are you? Any effect that provides a benefit based upon max hp provides the *exact* same benefit for someone getting 25% +hp/healing as someone getting 20% +DR. The effects aren't additive; they're multiplicative so anything that is based off of max hp has identical effects.

Then the two tanks could start from the same area.

Except that the tanks don't need to *start* from the same place. They need to *end* in the same place, which increasing Defiance from 20% to 25% wouldn't do.

EDIT: Please for the love of god will you people stop saying that the loss of the healing bonus is not worth the healing from IB? The cases where this is true are so ridiculously rare that I'm amazed this myth is still touted as a fact.

Considering that IB ends up being overheal 90% of the time, yeah, it's wasted. The only time that IB is *ever* appreciably useful on content that *isn't* a complete joke is when it and all of the heals you get within the next GCD or two are without any overheal. Healing yourself for 2000 doesn't matter when you'd have been healed for all of the damage you just healed yourself for in the next GCD or two in the first place. And we're not even going to get into how it doesn't scale so high damage scenarios turn it into a joke.

[Paikis]

Considering that IB ends up being overheal 90% of the time, yeah, it's wasted. The only time that IB is *ever* appreciably useful on content that *isn't* a complete joke is when it and all of the heals you get within the next GCD or two are without any overheal. Healing yourself for 2000 doesn't matter when you'd have been healed for all of the damage you just healed yourself for in the next GCD or two in the first place. And we're not even going to get into how it doesn't scale so high damage scenarios turn it into a joke.

You use IB after you get hit by something large. Any time IB has a non-zero amount of over-healing, you're using it wrong. You use it AFTER you get smacked down to 15% of your health, not before. If you have any overhealing from Inner Beast, just about ever, you're bad and should feel bad. That said, if your healers are able to get you to the point where you're providing overheal half a second after being reduced to 15-20% health then they don't need the healing bonus anyway, and more health NOW is still going to be better than a healing bonus you don't need.

As for high damage scenarios, there is no scenario in the game currently where the damage is both high enough and also survivable that using Inner Beast is a bad idea. Don't forget, 2000 is the minimum, this is what I get with just Maim and Storm's Eye. Either a crit or use of Berserk would give you a 3k heal and getting both is slightly more than 4k. Half your health in exchange for about 7% less healing? When could this possibly be a bad idea?

[Kitru]

Any time IB has a non-zero amount of over-healing, you're using it wrong.

You're only factoring the initial heals that follow the burst hit. With 8k hp, a reasonable burst hit is roughly 6k and reduces you to 25% of max hp. Cure II gets you for 1.5k hp, or 18.75% of total hp. If you use IB, it's still going to take 3-4 big heals to top you off and, chances are, it's not going to be a perfectly divisible number of heals which means that it's going to be wasted healing that wouldn't have been wasted if you didn't use IB. If there is any overhealing in the process of topping you off, that's overhealing due to IB because you were getting those heals anyways.

As for high damage scenarios, there is no scenario in the game currently where the damage is both high enough and also survivable that using Inner Beast is a bad idea. Don't forget, 2000 is the minimum, this is what I get with just Maim and Storm's Eye. Either a crit or use of Berserk would give you a 3k heal and getting both is slightly more than 4k. Half your health in exchange for about 7% less healing? When could this possibly be a bad idea?

Your IB number is complete and utter bullshit, and it's what you base the entirety of your conclusion upon. Seriously. If you're getting 2k with just Maim/SE, your basic IB is hitting harder than my Berserked BB. The only way you're doing that much damage is if you're wearing so much damage gear that you've got a whopping 5.5-6k hp in full i90 equivalent.

[Paikis]

You're only factoring the initial heals that follow the burst hit. With 8k hp, a reasonable burst hit is roughly 6k and reduces you to 25% of max hp. Cure II gets you for 1.5k hp, or 18.75% of total hp. If you use IB, it's still going to take 3-4 big heals to top you off and, chances are, it's not going to be a perfectly divisible number of heals which means that it's going to be wasted healing that wouldn't have been wasted if you didn't use IB. If there is any overhealing in the process of topping you off, that's overhealing due to IB because you were getting those heals anyways.

if there is 6k worth of healing to be done and 2x Cure IIs is going to heal you for 3k total, that still leaves 3k worth of healing that your Inner Beast can make up for. Heals NOW are better than heals in 6 seconds. That is even assuming that you have 2 healers. ADS(t1) and Caduceus you have 1 healer, turn 4 you have 1 healer and for half of Twintania you have 1 healer.

Your IB number is complete and utter bullshit, and it's what you base the entirety of your conclusion upon. Seriously. If you're getting 2k with just Maim/SE, your basic IB is hitting harder than my Berserked BB. The only way you're doing that much damage is if you're wearing so much damage gear that you've got a whopping 5.5-6k hp in full i90 equivalent.

It is entirely possible that I'm remembering incorrectly, which is why I used 1500 in the other thread. I know for a fact that 1500 is doable with absolutely no buffs except Maim and SE all by myself. No group, no food, no Berserk, no crits just the bare minimum I can do all by myself. Even if we take an Inner Beast of 1500, my point stands.

[Leiron]

You may be considering a strength pot Paikis.

[Giantbane]

Oh just stop. WAR is changing, deal with it.

Both classes still will play differently, even after 2.1. PLD is still much more straightforward in its general design and usage.

[Megido]

And if it did that, they might as well just get rid of the +hp and +healing on it entirely and turn it into a clone of Shield Oath. There's isn't any difference between 25% +hp and +healing and 20% DR, which isn't the same as "a class needs to have 25% +hp/+healing in order to be balanced against a class with 20% DR". There are other mitigation mechanisms that WAR gets that make up for that little cushion, like the +healing on Inner Beast (which, even if it's smaller, is still going to be present) and Bloodbath. It's not going to amount to *much* but it's enough to make up for the fact that WAR will have 20% +healing instead of the 25% that it would require for Defiance to match Shield Oath completely.

Sorry but do you actually think Twintania cares if you pop Bloodbath?