Paladin BiS Accessory Reddit Discussion

[Maelwys]

I'm staying away from the main part of this discussion now, because I've already covered all of what I feel are the major points (several times!)

Some people seem to forget that PLDs with itemlvl70 get to just over 5k HP...

But I'm a PLD with Standard Relic, Full DL accessories (besides the Hero's Ring), and Valor Head and Body. I sit at over 6k HP in a party without food. (Before I had my Valor Head + Body, it was just shy of 5.8k...) Last week I cleared Turn 4 in a PUG, with just NQ Knight's Bread.

Seriously, Turns 1-4 aren't rocket science. They just take a tiny bit of practice and the ability for most of your team to be able to dodge on command.

If I can clear Turn 4 in a PUG with a little over 6100HP, there's no reason at all that a i90'ed PLD with Melded Gryphonskin accessories sitting at over 6500HP should be having the slightest bit of trouble at anything lower than Turn 5 with a static group. ("BIS" to me implies your other slots are already pretty damn good and you're looking to tweak your build as much as possible for best performance... I'm not sure I'd recommend someone spend all their gil on melded Gryphonskins if they're still running around in AF or Hoplite armor pieces...)

Bad example. Turn 2 is a DPS race (a slow one, but still) where your tanks generate reduced threat due to a buff that ADS can get. Having Gryphonskin will help immensely here, especially if you're running with one or more Paladins, and if you're tank swapping correctly, you really shouldn't be getting killed.

It is a good example, because you are forgetting that while tanks are hitting for less, the DPS is going to be hitting for less as well.
ADS receives a defense buffs against all types of damage.
He receives a defensive buff against slashing, magic, piercing and blunt.
So if you are losing enmity on that fight, then you must have made an error somewhere.

Sorry, but Paikis is right here.

If you go the EAST route on Turn 2 then ADS takes 25% reduced slashing damage (Tanks) and 25% reduced Magic damage (BLM and SMN). The damage of other DDs - for example Bards - is unaffected. That basically means a 25% enmity buff for the other DDs. Melded Gryphonskin accessories increase your tanks damage output (over +Vit accessories) by about 20-25%, which almost completely closes that gap.

Our FC group has a heck of a lot of Bards. It means we've got plenty of silencers for ADS, but hate is definitely a little bit trickier to hold if we go that Eastern route because the bards occasionally like to blow all their +DMG/+Crit cooldowns simultaneously and tend to forget about Quelling Strikes.

If you go the WEST route, then Tanks deal normal damage and enmity is a heck of a lot easier.

It's also a little trickier to build hate on Turn 2 ADS, because you're not quite able to generate a constant stream of RoH combos on it - whenever the tanks swap positions, the first tank needs to hold back a bit on aggro generation until hate is properly traded.

It's not that tough a fight (dodging and silence timings excepted) but the aggro mechanics aren't as straightforward as with "normal" bosses.

In RIFT

In CoH, for a long time the main raid mob in the game (Hamidon) could be tanked by a single DPS class (Regen Scrapper) whilst over 200 people wailed on the boss.
Other MMORPG's mechanics are fun...

(Also, it has been stated that Coil was intended for i80 gear - the drops from Crystal Tower. Darklight is i70. Allagan/Myth is i90. This means that a mix of both is pretty much "balanced" for Coil, but just wearing Darklight is technically being undergeared.)

[TirionCrey]

But I'm a PLD with Standard Relic, Full DL accessories (besides the Hero's Ring), and Valor Head and Body. I sit at over 6k HP in a party without food. (Before I had my Valor Head + Body, it was just shy of 5.8k...) Last week I cleared Turn 4 in a PUG, with just NQ Knight's Bread.

Seriously, Turns 1-4 aren't rocket science. They just take a tiny bit of practice and the ability for most of your team to be able to dodge on command.

You Sir must have a hell of a different PLD than anybody else. With the gear you described and the gear I have in comparison, I got 57 more VIT...though I only get to 6360HP(6550ish in PT) out of PT w/o food buff. 57VIT= 855HP. 6550-855= 5.7k IN PT with your gear. Though I agree that's enough for Turn 1-4, it's still nice to have a buffer.

Also I was talking about full itemlvl70...which would substract another 24VIT from the gear you have. Which puts the PLD down to roughly 5.4k in PT(5.2k out of PT so just over 5k...as I said...) and while that still is enough for Turn 1-4 it's not like you won't get low sometimes on a Rotoswipe+AA and maybe hit the ground.

Also...if everybody in the group would have full itemlvl 70...have fun in meeting the DPS requirement for Turn4.

[Maelwys]

You Sir must have a hell of a different PLD than anybody else. With the gear you described and the gear I have in comparison, I got 57 more VIT...though I only get to 6360HP(6550ish in PT) out of PT w/o food buff. 57VIT= 855HP. 6550-855= 5.7k IN PT with your gear.

I'm a Sea Wolf. Base Vit @50 is 237, + Stat allocation is 267.

Darklight accessories are 10 vit each - so that's Neck, Ear, Wrist, Belt, Ring.
Heros Ring of Fending is 15 Vit, so that's 65 Vit total from accessories

Curtana is 21 Vit
Holy Shield is 8 Vit
Valor Head is 20 Vit
Valor Body is 33 Vit
Darklight Hands is 14 Vit
Darklight Feet/Legs combo is 36 Vit.
= That's 132 Vit from Armor

267 + 65 + 132 = 464 Vit. Applying the HP formula to this is = ((24*85) + 14.5*(464 - 202)) = 5839 HP.

Applying the "in a 8-man raid party" buff to this is *1.03 = 6014.17 HP. In a party, without food.

If we factor in food - in this case NQ Knight's Bread - it's +8 Vit for ((24*85) + 14.5*(472 - 202)) = 5955 HP, out of party, and 6133.65HP in party.

If I can clear Turn 4 in a PUG with a little over 6100HP

If I was fully i90'ed in +Vit gear, I'd be sitting at a total of 518 Vit. That would top me out (with HQ quality Toast) at 7029.75 HP
The same gearing, swapping out +Vit accessories for Melded Gryphonskins would put me at 6656.375 HP... so compared to the +Vit setup I'd effectively lose 373.375 HP, or 5.3114%.

I can honestly say that there have been very few occasions where I've thought an extra 373 HP is going to save me. But I'm willing to accept that other PLDs might think differently.

[Maelwys]

Also I was talking about full itemlvl70...which would substract another 24VIT from the gear you have. Which puts the PLD down to roughly 5.4k in PT(5.2k out of PT so just over 5k...as I said...) and while that still is enough for Turn 1-4 it's not like you won't get low sometimes on a Rotoswipe+AA and maybe hit the ground.

I'm splitting this into another post because it's a slightly seperate issue.
Coil is allegedly balanced for i80 gear, not i70... but I'd still hold that i70 gear is sufficient to get you through the early turns comfortably.

Breaking it down, for PLD...

A "Full Darklight" (e.g. NO MYTH AT ALL, not even the Hero's ring!) setup is:

Curtana: 21 Vit
Holy Shield: 8 Vit
Darklight Head/Body Combo: 36 Vit
Darklight Arms: 14 Vit
Darklight Feet/Legs Combo: 36 Vit
=115 Vit total

Accessories is 50 from the Darklight gear, and +8 from a Hoplite Ring. For 58 total.

Base Stats + Stat Point Allocation is still 237 + 30 = 267 Vit.

That's a Total of 440 Vit, which would get you 5491 HP solo, and 5655.73HP in a party.
If we add in NQ Knights Bread (the lowest I'd ever go whenever you actually want to make an "effort" on a coil run) that'd give you 5607 HP solo and 5775 HP in a party for a very basic "starter" PLD in coil.

Swapping the Hoplite for a Hero's Ring of Fending (which I'd consider to be the BEST first myth upgrade possible for a PLD) would bring you up to 5879.76 HP for a slightly more reasonable starting build, since it's very unlikely that someone will start running Coil with zero myth to their name.

I'd say that being in the region of ~5.8k is more than enough to get you through at least Turns 1 and 2 with a comfortable buffer for "derp moments".

I was easily tanking 4-buff-stacked Caduceus when I started out, and whilst I had the myth ring, I used Hoplite Head/Body rather than Darklight (because I can't STAND looking like I have a TinCan for a Head); so was basically sitting at exactly the same HP as that first "full-darklight" setup - 5775k. I got a bit more HP due to myth spends before attempting Turn 4, but even now I'm only sitting at another ~358 HP... (which as mentioned at the end of my last post, has never so far made a difference between our team winning and losing!!)

I will fully admit that DPS and healers are another story - the more myth the better. But Tanks reach a bit of a plateau, and I'd believe them to be able to get by just fine on anything short of Turn 5 (in terms of survivability, if not aggro control) with much less than fully i90ed levels of VIT.

[Leiron]

If you go the EAST route on Turn 2 then ADS takes 25% reduced slashing damage (Tanks) and 25% reduced Magic damage (BLM and SMN). The damage of other DDs - for example Bards - is unaffected. That basically means a 25% enmity buff for the other DDs. Melded Gryphonskin accessories increase your tanks damage output (over +Vit accessories) by about 20-25%, which almost completely closes that gap.

Our FC group has a heck of a lot of Bards. It means we've got plenty of silencers for ADS, but hate is definitely a little bit trickier to hold if we go that Eastern route because the bards occasionally like to blow all their +DMG/+Crit cooldowns simultaneously and tend to forget about Quelling Strikes.

If you go the WEST route, then Tanks deal normal damage and enmity is a heck of a lot easier.

It's also a little trickier to build hate on Turn 2 ADS, because you're not quite able to generate a constant stream of RoH combos on it - whenever the tanks swap positions, the first tank needs to hold back a bit on aggro generation until hate is properly traded.

I've not had any issues on ADS with enmity, primarily because we use WAR/PLD which does help enmity generation quite a bit.
In the past where we ran PLD/PLD it was never an issue, but at the same time, our bards also tended to realize that Bard DPS tends to have some of the highest burst out there and popped quelling strikes.
I do not believe that the gryphonskin accessories make up anything close towards a 25% increase towards your overall damage, since it takes quite a bit more than 45 strength for me to see Inner beast hit for 20% more.

It's not that tough a fight (dodging and silence timings excepted) but the aggro mechanics aren't as straightforward as with "normal" bosses.

It depends on how you handle it, normally we announced when the stacks are about to fall off at the 2 second, mark, then I personally provoke into a savage blade then an RoH attack since I've readied it with a fast blade before hand.
Works well even without poppong on gryphonskin accessories.

RIFT works as an example because it is a case where burst is pretty much the only time a tank is in danger, so you only really need to plan for it unless another issue pops up.
I don't see gryphonskin being useful for much else besides improved enmity generation.

I am still perplexed why they are releasing CT in an i80 state though.

[Maelwys]

I do not believe that the gryphonskin accessories make up anything close towards a 25% increase towards your overall damage, since it takes quite a bit more than 45 strength for me to see Inner beast hit for 20% more.

Are you STR or VIT stacked?

I based the "20-25% increase" figure I tend to throw about on a combination of the extra STR, Crit, Det and SS you gain going from a "BIS VIT/PARRY" build to a "BIS VIT/STR/DEX" build and the effect that has on the DPS output of a PLD that's wielding a Curtana +1.

The spreadsheet I have to hand on this PC is an older copy and I've since tweaked the builds slightly, but it'll give you a rough idea of the stat changes:

Det with full Gryphon Gear: 292
Det with full Hero/Allagan: 230
Crit with full Gryphon Gear: 368
Crit with full Hero/Allagan: 352
SS with full Gryphon Gear: 359 = 2.156s GCD
SS with full Hero/Allagan: 352 = 2.162s GCD

Plugging those values into http://valk.dancing-mad.com/calculat...ut-calculator/ (though I notice now when I link this that the calculator page has been altered recently because the old URL I had doesn't work) gave me a rough difference of:

+18.30% (Crit-Adjusted WS damage)
+26.83% (Crit Adjusted AA damage)

Because of the enmity modifiers on PLD WS (RoH combo!), I figure that it's going to be a lot closer to the WS value rather than the AA one.

[EDIT]Whilst cleaning up my more up-to-date sheet (see below) I've redone this calculation. Moving from a BIS +VIT to a BIS Gryphonskin build appears to grant just over a 14% increase in WS DPS if you try to keep Parry as high as possible with DPS being a secondary concern, and just under a 17% increase if you try to keep DPS as high as possible with Parry being a secondary concern. HP for both these Gryphonskin setups is 6694.50 HP, compared to the +VIT build's 7057 HP, a decrease of 5.14%.[/EDIT]

Can you perhaps link your spreadsheet in your siggy?
Would be very useful.

Me? It's more a personal equipment planner for my own PLD than a user-friendly calculator I'm afraid... but I'll see if I can dig out the updated copy tomorrow and export it to Google Docs

[EDIT] Couldn't convert it to Google Docs, too many formatting differences. Have cleaned it up a little and uploaded it here instead (it's a Standard *.xls file with no macros) - the link should stay valid for ~30 days.[/EDIT]

[Leiron]

Are you STR or VIT stacked?

Vit stacked using a +1 Curtana.

SS with full Gryphon Gear: 359 = 2.156s GCD
SS with full Hero/Allagan: 352 = 2.162s GCD

Hold up a second.
How are you running a near 2s GCD with that amount of skill speed?
Or am I misinterpreting?
I am not seeing anyone get close to that small a GCD unless they are SS stacking monks.

Unless perhaps I am misunderstanding something here.sniping for space

Ohhh I see.
Okay I didn't consider the increased crit rate.
I do not believe Shield Lob damage is affected by Dexterity I think its strength.
I know for sure Tomahawk is/was based off of Dexterity.

[Maelwys]

Hold up a second.
How are you running a near 2s GCD with that amount of skill speed?
Or am I misinterpreting?

It looks like that's from plugging those SS values into the old GCD formula, but without subtracting the base values first. Probably just a missing dependency in that older copy of the spreadsheet.

Subtracting the base (Base SS @50 is 341) I get 2.49s and 2.48s respectively (if we round to 2 DP as per the above formula)

Ohhh I see.
Okay I didn't consider the increased crit rate.
I do not believe Shield Lob damage is affected by Dexterity I think its strength.
I know for sure Tomahawk is/was based off of Dexterity.

I'm fairly sure that physical ranged attacks are based off Dex and melee attacks are based off STR... and Shield Lob is definitely marked as a Ranged attack...? Drat. Something else to test...

If memory serves, Det is technically quite a bit better than Crit for increasing PLD damage- it's why the BIS builds generally swap out the Valor Hands (15 Crit) instead of the Allagan Feet (11 Det) whenever they need a little extra accuracy.

[Gamemako]

I'm fairly sure that physical ranged attacks are based off Dex and melee attacks are based off STR... and Shield Lob is definitely marked as a Ranged attack...? Drat. Something else to test...

Even Flash, a magical attack, is based off of physical stats. The damage formula is such that if Shield Lob were based on Dexterity, you'd see extremely low damage from the attack. It is highly unlikely that DEX contributes to Shield Lob damage in any way.

[Exstal]

Our FC group has a heck of a lot of Bards. It means we've got plenty of silencers for ADS, but hate is definitely a little bit trickier to hold if we go that Eastern route because the bards occasionally like to blow all their +DMG/+Crit cooldowns simultaneously and tend to forget about Quelling Strikes.

So accounting for bad players. Ok, that's a good argument in my books.