Paladin BiS Accessory Reddit Discussion

[Exstal]

I progressed all the way through Coil wearing Gryphonskin. Extra VIT is not needed until Twintania. Gryphonskin is still the best choice.

Extra VIT won't even be necessary if you're the Warrior since you won't be tanking anyway :V

You haven't actually done Turn 2 have you?

So Twintania is turn 2? You should know what you wrote. Since, you know, you wrote it.

[Gamemako]

>need extra VIT for T2
>don't need extra VIT for t5

Read it again buddy, not what I said. I know the school system is going to crap, but really? Come on now.

Time to take a deep breath and slow down. Neither of you are making a whole lot of sense here, and capping your posts with vitriol and snark isn't making them any more readable.

[Maqaqa]

Taking i90 content in i90 gear =/= overgearing.
Because you know twintania isnt livia san junius...

[Paikis]

So Twintania is turn 2? You should know what you wrote. Since, you know, you wrote it.

I see where the problem lies. Try quoting the person you're talking to. I find it helps to keep things in context, especially when you're a couple posts down from the person you're responding to. Since we'd been talking about Turn 2, I assumed you also were talking about turn 2 when you suggested that I wouldn't be tanking. Judging by the fact that someone came out to defend you, I wasn't the only one.

As for tanking, even as the OT (lol) you will be tanking something on every turn except perhaps 1 and/or 3 depending on how your group does them. There are even groups who use the (probably intended) strat of tank swapping for Twintania. There's also the possibility of the MT getting killed and requiring the OT to tank.

[Gamemako]

Taking i90 content in i90 gear =/= overgearing.

I'll generally disagree with that statement. If you must complete the content to acquire progression equipment, then the content is keyed to a lower level than the rewarded gear. The only exception is if the rewarded gear is cosmetic in nature.

It is worth noting, however, that the weapons acquired from Twintania are being moved to ilvl95.

[Exstal]

Damn, I was one post off zzZ

Our tank got some bad RNG
6384 Death Sentence into a 1857 auto attack
5719 Death setence into a 20xx auto attack

We just rage quit for the night

[Maqaqa]

Overgearing describes a situation where a player's equipment is powerful enough to minimize or outright negate the usual dangers of a fight.

I find i90 appropriate for t5, maybe because im a WAR.

[Leiron]

I progressed all the way through Coil wearing Gryphonskin. Extra VIT is not needed until Twintania. Gryphonskin is still the best choice.

That isn't really a good argument though Paikis.
Just because you can tank something in X gear, does not mean it is optimal gear.
Heck in RIFT, you can probably put DPS weaponry on instead of tanking weaponry on, take a hit towards your survivability, but raise your DPS by about 5 to 10%.
It isn't optimal though, because the increase of it is small, and there are cases like Crucia's breath where you absolutely need more health.
Crucia's breath typically will kill a tank in full t2 raid gear in 4 hits.
She's a t1 raid boss.
In progression gear, this turns into 2 hits using DPS weaponry, 3 hits with tank weaponry.
That little bit of HP can make the difference between a wipe and not a wipe.
Mind you she breathes every 45 seconds, then drops large chunks of raid damage every minute or so.
Its extremely stressful for the healers when she bombs the raid and the tanka t the same time, and you really want the vitality to avoid possible wipes due to not having the HP to survive for 1 more cast.


The issue with gryphonskin vs Allagan fending is more of an argument about extra DPS vs extra vitality.
Given that as tanks, our DPS doesn't make much of an impact, there really isn't a reason to go for the extra damage because t will only short the fight a few seconds at best.
So its not a really good argument.

So, considering that, its better to use vitality.
You have a larger HP sponge to take a hit, the healer has more time to top you off for the next hit, and generally you run with a bit more of a reliable hp pool.

Now sure..you get a little bit more parry, but that works only on physical abilities, and you generally do not want to rely on rng for mitigation because while you can figure out an average mitigation provided by it, that doesn't mean it will occur that way all the time, or that you'll parry big hits that can kill you instead of tiny ones that won't.

Having more vitality means you can take more hits. It means there will be extra breathing room for when you take a hit, so let us say god forbid the rng gods line up an you take a nasty spike, you survive to pop an IB or a second IB even.

Generally, I wouldn't be saying Gryphonskin is the best choice considering

A. It generally doesn't benefit you much DPS wise.
B. The enmity generation is really the main selling point.
C. Its very much a debatable topic.

I'd really only take gryphon skin if I felt that my enmity generation was not enough, and even then its not like you need to go all gryphon skin or all fending.
There might be a middle ground where a combination of both is actually the best.

Taking i90 content in i90 gear =/= overgearing.
Because you know twintania isnt livia san junius...

Generally this is untrue.
For most raids, the gear you have before entering the dungeon
i.e. Darklight gear

Is the gear that the content is designed with in mind.
Now there are cases where there are gear checks yes, but generally they aren't very extreme and don't require gear from that dungeon.

In the case of Bahamut's coil, you do not need the ilvl90 gear to complete it.

Overgearing describes a situation where a player's equipment is powerful enough to minimize or outright negate the usual dangers of a fight.

In RIFT, a tank in t2 raid gear will die to a Crucia's breath in 4 hits.
In t1 raid gear/crafted/expert gear, its typically a 3 hit blow.
Generally you don't see cases of completely negating the danger unless you are 2 tiers above the content.
It took a level increase before tanks could actually Tank Prince Dollin instead of having a Mage tank him and that was with gear 2 tiers above it.

Outgearing is just that, when you've lowered the danger significantly, not when you've negated it.

[Maelwys]

I'm staying away from the main part of this discussion now, because I've already covered all of what I feel are the major points (several times!)

Some people seem to forget that PLDs with itemlvl70 get to just over 5k HP...

But I'm a PLD with Standard Relic, Full DL accessories (besides the Hero's Ring), and Valor Head and Body. I sit at over 6k HP in a party without food. (Before I had my Valor Head + Body, it was just shy of 5.8k...) Last week I cleared Turn 4 in a PUG, with just NQ Knight's Bread.

Seriously, Turns 1-4 aren't rocket science. They just take a tiny bit of practice and the ability for most of your team to be able to dodge on command.

If I can clear Turn 4 in a PUG with a little over 6100HP, there's no reason at all that a i90'ed PLD with Melded Gryphonskin accessories sitting at over 6500HP should be having the slightest bit of trouble at anything lower than Turn 5 with a static group. ("BIS" to me implies your other slots are already pretty damn good and you're looking to tweak your build as much as possible for best performance... I'm not sure I'd recommend someone spend all their gil on melded Gryphonskins if they're still running around in AF or Hoplite armor pieces...)

Bad example. Turn 2 is a DPS race (a slow one, but still) where your tanks generate reduced threat due to a buff that ADS can get. Having Gryphonskin will help immensely here, especially if you're running with one or more Paladins, and if you're tank swapping correctly, you really shouldn't be getting killed.

It is a good example, because you are forgetting that while tanks are hitting for less, the DPS is going to be hitting for less as well.
ADS receives a defense buffs against all types of damage.
He receives a defensive buff against slashing, magic, piercing and blunt.
So if you are losing enmity on that fight, then you must have made an error somewhere.

Sorry, but Paikis is right here.

If you go the EAST route on Turn 2 then ADS takes 25% reduced slashing damage (Tanks) and 25% reduced Magic damage (BLM and SMN). The damage of other DDs - for example Bards - is unaffected. That basically means a 25% enmity buff for the other DDs. Melded Gryphonskin accessories increase your tanks damage output (over +Vit accessories) by about 20-25%, which almost completely closes that gap.

Our FC group has a heck of a lot of Bards. It means we've got plenty of silencers for ADS, but hate is definitely a little bit trickier to hold if we go that Eastern route because the bards occasionally like to blow all their +DMG/+Crit cooldowns simultaneously and tend to forget about Quelling Strikes.

If you go the WEST route, then Tanks deal normal damage and enmity is a heck of a lot easier.

It's also a little trickier to build hate on Turn 2 ADS, because you're not quite able to generate a constant stream of RoH combos on it - whenever the tanks swap positions, the first tank needs to hold back a bit on aggro generation until hate is properly traded.

It's not that tough a fight (dodging and silence timings excepted) but the aggro mechanics aren't as straightforward as with "normal" bosses.

In RIFT

In CoH, for a long time the main raid mob in the game (Hamidon) could be tanked by a single DPS class (Regen Scrapper) whilst over 200 people wailed on the boss.
Other MMORPG's mechanics are fun...

(Also, it has been stated that Coil was intended for i80 gear - the drops from Crystal Tower. Darklight is i70. Allagan/Myth is i90. This means that a mix of both is pretty much "balanced" for Coil, but just wearing Darklight is technically being undergeared.)

[TirionCrey]

But I'm a PLD with Standard Relic, Full DL accessories (besides the Hero's Ring), and Valor Head and Body. I sit at over 6k HP in a party without food. (Before I had my Valor Head + Body, it was just shy of 5.8k...) Last week I cleared Turn 4 in a PUG, with just NQ Knight's Bread.

Seriously, Turns 1-4 aren't rocket science. They just take a tiny bit of practice and the ability for most of your team to be able to dodge on command.

You Sir must have a hell of a different PLD than anybody else. With the gear you described and the gear I have in comparison, I got 57 more VIT...though I only get to 6360HP(6550ish in PT) out of PT w/o food buff. 57VIT= 855HP. 6550-855= 5.7k IN PT with your gear. Though I agree that's enough for Turn 1-4, it's still nice to have a buffer.

Also I was talking about full itemlvl70...which would substract another 24VIT from the gear you have. Which puts the PLD down to roughly 5.4k in PT(5.2k out of PT so just over 5k...as I said...) and while that still is enough for Turn 1-4 it's not like you won't get low sometimes on a Rotoswipe+AA and maybe hit the ground.

Also...if everybody in the group would have full itemlvl 70...have fun in meeting the DPS requirement for Turn4.