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  1. #1
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by MartaDemireux View Post
    They also said they're looking into ways to choose to be a healer in dungeons under 30 as an ACN. If they can do that (allow a class to choose its role if it can fulfill more than one) they can make this role as well.
    All that does is allow ACN to take up a second of the trinity roles. That's entirely different from wanting to add a fourth role.

    Support cannot effectively exist in an MMO that is built on the holy trinity. Not that you'd want it because "support" has and will screw over classes that have no business holding the jockstraps of the "real heroes" and tend to become either incredibly underpowered with a blindingly idiotic and non-functional niche or in such a bad spot within player dynamics that they get abandoned or allowed to stagnate.

    Support blended into the trinity roles works because it adds depth and strategy to one-trick ponies (which is what you'd get if you took away debuffs, CC and buffs from tank, heals and DPS). We gain a lot from the current model and I for one hope they stick to it as we move forward. And yes, I also say this because I want RDM to be a DPS job with utility built in, not a "support" class it was condemned to be in FFXI.
    (5)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  2. #2
    Player
    MartaDemireux's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    1,044
    Character
    Hiraeth Petrichor
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    DPS job with utility built in
    You are missing the point entirely. I quoted the part I'm addressing as you must not have read the OP.

    I'm not asking for pure support classes.

    I'm asking for future DPS that follow BRD's pattern (as well as BRD) of having support built in and do not have a DPS LB to fill only 1 slot in a 4 man party or up to 2 slots in an 8 man party when using Duty Finder to ensure there is always a DPS option for LB's as many encounters are built around the assumed use of one. I suggested adding a 4th "role" simply to easily distinguish such DPS classes/jobs from DPS classes/jobs with a DPS LB instead of just a hidden tick mark on BRD's data that only allows the server to see what's up and prevent all DPS roles to be filled by them.

    Edit: The reason I want it distinguishable player-side is because I've run into many situations where other players will say "BRD LB! The mob was almost dead why didn't you LB to kill it? STUPID," or thereabouts. If it's distinguished, by say a yellow background, that it does not have a DPS LB then everyone will know by default and avoid that scenario. I really suggest you read the OP in its entirety. I've addressed multiple times that by "support" I mean "DPS without a DPS LB that has similar functions to BRD."
    (0)
    Last edited by MartaDemireux; 11-25-2013 at 04:46 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    [QUOTE=MartaDemireux;1595600]
    I'm asking for future DPS that follow BRD's pattern (as well as BRD) of having support built in and do not have a DPS LB to fill only 1 slot in a 4 man party or up to 2 slots in an 8 man party when using Duty Finder to ensure there is always a DPS option for LB's as many encounters are built around the assumed use of one.
    You shouldn't segregate bards from the rest of DPS because regardless of LB (which I have mentioned before, but I can bet dollars to donuts BRD's LB will change when we get more ranged classes in the game).
    (0)
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  4. #4
    Player
    MartaDemireux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,044
    Character
    Hiraeth Petrichor
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    You shouldn't segregate bards from the rest of DPS because regardless of LB (which I have mentioned before, but I can bet dollars to donuts BRD's LB will change when we get more ranged classes in the game).
    But in a trinity game can it not also be argued that you should represent each of the 3 LB types in any given Duty Finder party? That a DPS slot aught be filled with a DPS that has said LB? That a DPS without said LB should be classified as a different role for queueing purposes to prevent the absence of a DPS LB where it matters?
    (0)
    * I fully give permission for any of my written ideas to be used by SE without recognition.

  5. #5
    Player
    Nahara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    669
    Character
    N'hara Tia
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by MartaDemireux View Post
    But in a trinity game can it not also be argued that you should represent each of the 3 LB types in any given Duty Finder party?
    No, you really can't, because your role in a group is not defined by your limit break.

    That a DPS slot aught be filled with a DPS that has said LB? That a DPS without said LB should be classified as a different role for queueing purposes to prevent the absence of a DPS LB where it matters?
    As I said earlier, there is no encounter in the game (and there should be no encounter) where it is impossible to win without the presence of a damage-dealing limit break. The only one you might have a case with is Ifrit Hard Mode and killing the nails, but even then, if you can't burn down all the nails in time, you can still possibly survive Hellfire using the tank LB, and you will always have a tank LB.
    (1)



  6. #6
    Player
    MartaDemireux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,044
    Character
    Hiraeth Petrichor
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nahara View Post
    No, you really can't, because your role in a group is not defined by your limit break.
    But your LB is defined by your role in the party. BRD is an exception to the rule so you're either stuck with A: leaving it in a state of inconsistency (bad choice imo); B: changing BRD's LB to DPS (it wouldn't work well especially with incoming changes designed to weaken their DPS); C: my proposal (best choice imo and doesn't hurt the game any just gives different options and a form of consistency).


    As I said earlier, there is no encounter in the game (and there should be no encounter) where it is impossible to win without the presence of a damage-dealing limit break. The only one you might have a case with is Ifrit Hard Mode and killing the nails, but even then, if you can't burn down all the nails in time, you can still possibly survive Hellfire using the tank LB, and you will always have a tank LB.
    Tank LB does not work for Titan or Ifrit. It does work on Garuda's Reckoning but not on sisters' exlposions. Content is designed taking into consideration LB's for when you challenge said content at its appropriate level. In level appropriate gear, Demon Wall's adds are extremely dangerous without a DPS LB. Tonberry King will kill you if not enough DPS is done in time. Ifrit's nails. Titan's heart. Garuda's sisters. ADS clicks. They're all DPS checks and the key factor here is they're all designed with LBs in mind. Prolonging your death or a full heal and raise won't save you in a DPS check situation especially when its game over if you don't do it in time.
    (0)
    * I fully give permission for any of my written ideas to be used by SE without recognition.

  7. #7
    Player
    Anna_Lannis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    91
    Character
    Anna Lannis
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    The former can create the "Princess <Class>" attitude and the later just disenfranchises players with a fondness for a class but unable to play due to being pidgeon-holed into unnecessary support.

    ^^ We got enough princess bards back at Vana'diel thank you.
    (2)