Battle Reform Blueprint

[Shikyo]

I can't wait for the battle update to watch some people ragequit.

Same i'm not even playing the game atm i'll wait till last week of june and the update to see all these crazys that like the way this failed game's systems are have a hissy fit and claim they are gonna leave.

[Shikyo]

They won't ragequit.

They'll cry, moan and complain on the forums for months and months and say how much soandso is a failure and troll etc. The usual MO.

Agreed,
IMO they can only make the game one way, Either make it a party/group friendly MMORPG with unique classes where everyone knows their place and working together is a must to accoplish great things.

OR

Stay what it is now which is a mish mash hybrid class solo fest which is like a console single player rpg but online.

The way it is now has failed and it cant be both, one or the other.

They cant make cash off of the game the way it is now, I'm sure they know that lol.
So if they dont try whats been proven to work by another cash cow game from the same company this thing is just delaying the inevitable, whine all you want but imo thats about the jist of the whole matter.

The few ppl that actually like this game as it is should be the ones they dont care to loose because they obviously werent enough of them to make the game successful which should tell you that the majority did not like it.

Thoes that complain about it changing for the better and fail to see that keeping it the same will be its demise, you are the minority sorry.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

thats not challenge you want then, what you want is less challenge and more structure, structure is not challenge. Im not saying that you shouldnt want structure, im saying dont call structure challenge. You want to do one thing, and have some one else do one thing and together you play, thats fine, but its not any more challenging or skillfull. I also dont see why the fact that you want to do one thing should force everyone to play your style.
If i had a healing conjurer, i would have adapted my playstyle and skill bar to take advantage of the fact that we had a healer, it would have been easier. But notice how we were actually able to get something done, although it be more difficult, by taking advantage of our strengths to make up for our weaknesses, although our cure potential was much lower, we all shared the burden, and used my off tank ability and enhanced DD to deal with situation, that is real strategy, adapting on the fly to the situation with the tools you are given. Sitting around waiting for 3 specific play types or you cant do anything is not challenge. did you play ffxi? do you know how many people ran around a moogle for hours? do you know how impossible it was for a dragoon to get invited? Do you know how many 5 man parties of varied jobs disbanded because they couldnt find a whm or a pld/nin?

if you have a class, you are the best with your skill set, hands down, if you can play with mostly your skillsets abilities, you will always be better off, you will do more damage, be more accurate, and make better use of in class synergies, but when you cant, you can all hybridize, lowering your strengths to make up for your weakness, this is a good gameplay mechanic.

But really i guess you just want people to have to sit around waiting for a healer all day, because in your perfect system we would only have 2 healers and 7 DDs and 7 tanks i dont see how that is balanced, or logical.
Everyone can take damage, everyone can deal damage, not everyone can heal, you will just imbalance the game to healing classes, and you want them to be intrinsicly more valuable than any other player.

You're missing the point. You are still saying that the chaos and added responsibilities between players makes it challenging (which is really more chaotic and stressful) when it doesn't need to be. When I look at a party who gets by looking sloppy, I don't see that as a challenge.

On top of that, when formulas are simplified and condensed, this kind of play-style will be near obsolete and for good reason. There should be no reason for hoop jumping when forming a group in terms of proficiency, but in the challenge of the opposite end of the battle.

Also, please do not tell me what I find to be a perfect system. First you have to understand the system and where it is said it is going before even discussing it which you clearly do not. And if you do, it's wanting to go in a direction that is irrational or unnecessary. If you wern't so interested in hearing yourself talk, you'd actually see some pretty good arguments several pages back before you started into the debate. All of which sound more balanced and fun. Not unnecessarily difficult and sounding like you want to keep player's roles in a mediocre state to allow you to continue making a clusterf#$% you call a group.

[ZephyrAM]

I've never really understood the problem with doing what needs doing in a group, rather then just doing one devoted task. Why dedicate people to 'only' attack, heal, or tank when you can switch on the fly as the situation demands?

Sure, there are generally things that certain players(classes) excel at, and if they 'want' to be the best that can be at that one thing and not worry about anything else, more power to them. There's nothing wrong with that anymore then there shouldn't be anything wrong with allowing for situational roles. Players that focus on one aspect just need to be more careful not to get involved in the others, such as a damager drawing hate, or they may die due to lack of flexibility. On the flip side though, you know good and well who will be doing the most damage in the group... that focused damager.

There's nothing wrong with either so long as there's a choice.

[Physic]

You're missing the point. You are still saying that the chaos and added responsibilities between players makes it challenging (which is really more chaotic and stressful) when it doesn't need to be. When I look at a party who gets by looking sloppy, I don't see that as a challenge.

On top of that, when formulas are simplified and condensed, this kind of play-style will be near obsolete and for good reason. There should be no reason for hoop jumping when forming a group in terms of proficiency, but in the challenge of the opposite end of the battle.

Also, please do not tell me what I find to be a perfect system. First you have to understand the system and where it is said it is going before even discussing it which you clearly do not. And if you do, it's wanting to go in a direction that is irrational or unnecessary. If you wern't so interested in hearing yourself talk, you'd actually see some pretty good arguments several pages back before you started into the debate. All of which sound more balanced and fun. Not unnecessarily difficult and sounding like you want to keep player's roles in a mediocre state to allow you to continue making a clusterf#$% you call a group.

I see you believe in internet-thugging rather than making sense. you want to call something a clusterfck, because we are all following the class roles that we were actually given based on skills.
Glad = main tank
Pug = off tank
Archer = ranged damage and support

glad had multiple cures and tanking skills equiped, it was acting as a pld, surprise, thats what it is likely glad is going to specialize in
pug has a couple low level cures and tanking skills, takes hate when the glad is in danger, or when we have multiple mobs that he cant tank fast, otherwise focusing on DD
archer does ranged damage, and can provide support heals and situation heals (like waking up the tank)

Every one had a role, and it worked and it fits the role each job is supposed to have, we all sacrificed a bit of our power to be able heal, if we had a healer we would have shifted to more classic roles.
that system allows both playstyles, the rigid system you want does not. A game doesnt have to be about being a 1 trick pony.

you are the one who commented on what i said, and brought up beef with the idea of a cross class cures as they are.
lets look at it
a glad can cure himself for about 50% of the amount that a con would get for THE SAME EXACT SPELL right now. it also costs the SAME AMOUNT OF MP. while the glad also has LESS MP.

this means,
gld has 400 mp
cure ii cost say 20 mp and will heal him for less say 300
he can cast again in about 7 seconds or, with cast time, he can 1 cure every 10 seconds or 300x6 cures a minute 1800 hp healed a minute maximum
he can heal 20 times in his mana pool

con has 800 mp
cure still cost 20 mp and will heal for 600 ON MULTIPLE TARGETS
he can cast cure once every 7.5 seconds
600x8 cures a minute or 4800 hp PER PARTy member a minute
he can cure 40 times in his mana pool

this is with the current system, just because you see someone curing doesnt mean they are stealing your job, if they limit this much more, you will have useless cures, in FFXI pld had access to cure IV, the glad of today would need to get con to 36 and boost his con abilities to even come close to a plds curing power.
cure on subjob is equivalent roughly to using a subjob cure in ffxi. you may get access to cure II in ffxiv but its about 40% or more less effective, which is roughly equal to doing a cure III in ffxi on sub, because in that game, using cure on subjob did not lower its effectiveness.

the point is its all an illussion that people can take other peoples jobs by using some of thier skills. people are reacting to the illussion that some one is better because they are using skills they dont have

you know if i use second wind below optimium rank it cures for the same as second wind i right?
so if some dude sees me, as a level 20 lancer using second wind 2 he may get jealous, but is actually equal to second wind i, and it is less potent and has a longer recast. Its just an idea in peoples heads that doesnt reflect the reality of the game.

this is why a cross class skill like cure ii iii or whatever doesnt need to be limited to one class, becuase you arent going to be any where near as good as the job it was meant to be using it.

[OMEGA_HACK]

Strict Classes does = challenging in MMO standard, you are talking about search times for other players as if this were XI...need I remind you the point of "searching" for a class is completely MOOT when you can change your job/class where ever you want?

Strict Class setup creates a PARTY challenge, not an individual challenge, and I think that is the biggest thing people are not realizing, this is an MMO; personally I feel it should be Party dynamics 1st, solo dynamics 2nd.

The challenge I feel you would get is having to RELY on other people to lend a hand, something that is unique to the MMORPG experience versus an single player RPG.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

I see you believe in internet-thugging rather than making sense. you want to call something a clusterfck, because we are all following the class roles that we were actually given based on skills.
Glad = main tank
Pug = off tank
Archer = ranged damage and support

glad had multiple cures and tanking skills equiped, it was acting as a pld, surprise, thats what it is likely glad is going to specialize in
pug has a couple low level cures and tanking skills, takes hate when the glad is in danger, or when we have multiple mobs that he cant tank fast, otherwise focusing on DD
archer does ranged damage, and can provide support heals and situation heals (like waking up the tank)

Every one had a role, and it worked and it fits the role each job is supposed to have, we all sacrificed a bit of our power to be able heal, if we had a healer we would have shifted to more classic roles.
that system allows both playstyles, the rigid system you want does not. A game doesnt have to be about being a 1 trick pony.

you are the one who commented on what i said, and brought up beef with the idea of a cross class cures as they are.
lets look at it
a glad can cure himself for about 50% of the amount that a con would get for THE SAME EXACT SPELL right now. it also costs the SAME AMOUNT OF MP. while the glad also has LESS MP.

this means,
gld has 400 mp
cure ii cost say 20 mp and will heal him for less say 300
he can cast again in about 7 seconds or, with cast time, he can 1 cure every 10 seconds or 300x6 cures a minute 1800 hp healed a minute maximum
he can heal 20 times in his mana pool

con has 800 mp
cure still cost 20 mp and will heal for 600 ON MULTIPLE TARGETS
he can cast cure once every 7.5 seconds
600x8 cures a minute or 4800 hp PER PARTy member a minute
he can cure 40 times in his mana pool

this is with the current system, just because you see someone curing doesnt mean they are stealing your job, if they limit this much more, you will have useless cures, in FFXI pld had access to cure IV, the glad of today would need to get con to 36 and boost his con abilities to even come close to a plds curing power.
cure on subjob is equivalent roughly to using a subjob cure in ffxi. you may get access to cure II in ffxiv but its about 40% or more less effective, which is roughly equal to doing a cure III in ffxi on sub, because in that game, using cure on subjob did not lower its effectiveness.

the point is its all an illussion that people can take other peoples jobs by using some of thier skills. people are reacting to the illussion that some one is better because they are using skills they dont have

you know if i use second wind below optimium rank it cures for the same as second wind i right?
so if some dude sees me, as a level 20 lancer using second wind 2 he may get jealous, but is actually equal to second wind i, and it is less potent and has a longer recast. Its just an idea in peoples heads that doesnt reflect the reality of the game.

this is why a cross class skill like cure ii iii or whatever doesnt need to be limited to one class, becuase you arent going to be any where near as good as the job it was meant to be using it.

The topic wasn't what the class roles were. The topic was difficulty in battle strategy. How did we get to cross class potency?

All of these things are fine being used cross class, but there is a point where all melee and mage are not very unique in their roles. Without taking away the actual skills from classes or class locking them, all the devs need to do is what they already told us. Rework the attribute formulas.

Now stay with me, because I know this might anger you, but this will allow more customization in roles within the customization of skills. Being that most classes relying on player rank vs Mob rank, DEF, and base weapon attack rather than the attributes themselves or a mix of both. You begin to see a greater allotment towards VIT and MND. Condensing the pool and simplifying the formulas will force players to work even further towards a unique play style. The current system that you defend adds less uniqueness than you believe it does. While one player can take on different roles with cross class or the roles given to them, as far as the attributes are concerned, they are at a mediocre potential due to their modifiers through the attribute system. That isn't due to convenience, but due to design flaws. The early vision didn't convey such self sufficiency, but that roles should be switched between battles to make up for what the group was missing. What the game actually turned out to be wasn't what they envisioned from the beginning and it looks like the new and reassigned team wants to keep that and rightfully so.

[SuzakuCMX]

I see you believe in internet-thugging rather than making sense. you want to call something a clusterfck, because we are all following the class roles that we were actually given based on skills.
Glad = main tank
Pug = off tank
Archer = ranged damage and support

glad had multiple cures and tanking skills equiped, it was acting as a pld, surprise, thats what it is likely glad is going to specialize in
pug has a couple low level cures and tanking skills, takes hate when the glad is in danger, or when we have multiple mobs that he cant tank fast, otherwise focusing on DD
archer does ranged damage, and can provide support heals and situation heals (like waking up the tank)

Every one had a role, and it worked and it fits the role each job is supposed to have, we all sacrificed a bit of our power to be able heal, if we had a healer we would have shifted to more classic roles.
that system allows both playstyles, the rigid system you want does not. A game doesnt have to be about being a 1 trick pony.

you are the one who commented on what i said, and brought up beef with the idea of a cross class cures as they are.
lets look at it
a glad can cure himself for about 50% of the amount that a con would get for THE SAME EXACT SPELL right now. it also costs the SAME AMOUNT OF MP. while the glad also has LESS MP.

this means,
gld has 400 mp
cure ii cost say 20 mp and will heal him for less say 300
he can cast again in about 7 seconds or, with cast time, he can 1 cure every 10 seconds or 300x6 cures a minute 1800 hp healed a minute maximum
he can heal 20 times in his mana pool

con has 800 mp
cure still cost 20 mp and will heal for 600 ON MULTIPLE TARGETS
he can cast cure once every 7.5 seconds
600x8 cures a minute or 4800 hp PER PARTy member a minute
he can cure 40 times in his mana pool

this is with the current system, just because you see someone curing doesnt mean they are stealing your job, if they limit this much more, you will have useless cures, in FFXI pld had access to cure IV, the glad of today would need to get con to 36 and boost his con abilities to even come close to a plds curing power.
cure on subjob is equivalent roughly to using a subjob cure in ffxi. you may get access to cure II in ffxiv but its about 40% or more less effective, which is roughly equal to doing a cure III in ffxi on sub, because in that game, using cure on subjob did not lower its effectiveness.

the point is its all an illussion that people can take other peoples jobs by using some of thier skills. people are reacting to the illussion that some one is better because they are using skills they dont have

you know if i use second wind below optimium rank it cures for the same as second wind i right?
so if some dude sees me, as a level 20 lancer using second wind 2 he may get jealous, but is actually equal to second wind i, and it is less potent and has a longer recast. Its just an idea in peoples heads that doesnt reflect the reality of the game.

this is why a cross class skill like cure ii iii or whatever doesnt need to be limited to one class, becuase you arent going to be any where near as good as the job it was meant to be using it.

The problem is that there is no role separation between classes within the same discipline.

Anyone who says there is no separation between disciplines is an idiot. But when my GLD can use any skill that matters that a MRD or PUG can or vise versa with 90% effectiveness, the line is blurred.

The only things that need changes are making stats matter (because only VIT and MND have visible effects for the first 40 levels or so), making each individual skill have an affinity with other weapon classes, and making the different damage types useful (Slashing, Blunt, Piercing, etc.) There is a lot of versatility that could happen with this because each weapon class does a different type of damage (EX: Blunt has a better chance of breaking off stuff like horns, piercing does less base damage but ignores more defense so it's more effective vs. high-armor targets, slashing best at cutting off stuff like legs and tails, etc...and archers have different arrows to equip for different damage types but overall should deal less damage since they are versatile and long-ranged).

That way it's more of a "customized class" thing than "No matter what class you are and how you distribute your stats, you're able to do every role but what a DoW (if you're DoM) or DoM (if you're DoW) can do."

[Physic]

The topic wasn't what the class roles were. The topic was difficulty in battle strategy. How did we get to cross class potency?

All of these things are fine being used cross class, but there is a point where all melee and mage are not very unique in their roles. Without taking away the actual skills from classes or class locking them, all the devs need to do is what they already told us. Rework the attribute formulas.

Now stay with me, because I know this might anger you, but this will allow more customization in roles within the customization of skills. Being that most classes relying on player rank vs Mob rank, DEF, and base weapon attack rather than the attributes themselves or a mix of both. You begin to see a greater allotment towards VIT and MND. Condensing the pool and simplifying the formulas will force players to work even further towards a unique play style. The current system that you defend adds less uniqueness than you believe it does. While one player can take on different roles with cross class or the roles given to them, as far as the attributes are concerned, they are at a mediocre potential due to their modifiers through the attribute system. That isn't due to convenience, but due to design flaws. The early vision didn't convey such self sufficiency, but that roles should be switched between battles to make up for what the group was missing. What the game actually turned out to be wasn't what they envisioned from the beginning and it looks like the new and reassigned team wants to keep that and rightfully so.

basically what i was talking about, that you were telling me was crazy was the use of cross class skills, and the perception that they need to remove cross class skills like cure ii, because they should only be for certain classes.

I have no problem with the altering of stat formulas and our overall stat pool, i cant speak about that because we have no idea what effect that will have, it may in fact prove beneficial.

In all honesty, i doubt they will alter dlevel much, because dlevel allows the game system to scale with rank rather than having to do it manually. But maybe they will, in the end if the math people do their job it will end up translating to not much difference in actual battle. Though im guessing they will probably scale us to being weaker, since being weaker will make playing in parties more necessary, the same way that uncapping exp gained from high dlevel mobs would make parties more necessary.

however taking out cure ii for example would put sub max cure at at cure 1 at 178 where a same equipped and statted healer of same level might be throwing out 600 cure ii, keeping in mind that monsters hitting you for 200+ damage per regular hit, and 500+ per weapon skill, you would basically be making anyone besides a con/thaum trying to heal even weak or even match content completely unusable, all they could hope to do is slow your deaths.

All because some person saw some one casting a spell called cure ii before he learned the spell? when its probably half as potent as his cure I? When that person must have in fact leveled conjurer to higher than that guy who is jealous has? Thats a bad reason. If they want to take out high level cures for subs then they need to remove the cross class penalty, because when you have 2k hp, and monsters are hitting for 300 regular attack, 178 cure I is beyond worthless. How could paladin exist with such weak cures at their disposal, it would literally not even be worth casting.

I can see limiting specific roles, or jobs to certain skills, but limiting the jobs, AND the disciplines is a double whammy of weakness for no good reason.

[Physic]

The problem is that there is no role separation between classes within the same discipline.

Anyone who says there is no separation between disciplines is an idiot. But when my GLD can use any skill that matters that a MRD or PUG can or vise versa with 90% effectiveness, the line is blurred.

The only things that need changes are making stats matter (because only VIT and MND have visible effects for the first 40 levels or so), making each individual skill have an affinity with other weapon classes, and making the different damage types useful (Slashing, Blunt, Piercing, etc.) There is a lot of versatility that could happen with this because each weapon class does a different type of damage (EX: Blunt has a better chance of breaking off stuff like horns, piercing does less base damage but ignores more defense so it's more effective vs. high-armor targets, slashing best at cutting off stuff like legs and tails, etc...and archers have different arrows to equip for different damage types but overall should deal less damage since they are versatile and long-ranged).

That way it's more of a "customized class" thing than "No matter what class you are and how you distribute your stats, you're able to do every role but what a DoW (if you're DoM) or DoM (if you're DoW) can do."

this is also a fallacy, all skills are less effective on sub jobs, because of design, it is not 90% as effecient, you get in general a 25% potency drop, and a 25% increase in recast, as well, you cant use any special abilities a job offers.
for example skull sunder, on sub job it has a 10 second or so recast, it does about 75% the damage as on a marauder, and it cant make use of steadfast bonuses(anymore used to be bugged) it is also less accurate.
so a marauder gets 300 damage per skull sunder better accuracy, can use it more often (important for a 500 tp skills) and can hit multiple targets with thier unique steadfast property.
pug gets 250 dmg approx, is more likely to miss, and cannot spam the skill.

feint, looks great on sub right? merely ok, the recast timer means that you wont be able to use it when your missing a lot, and you wont have tp, while lancer has speed surge job exclusively, (more attacks = more tp) comrade in arms on a shorter cooldown, and invigorate on a shorter cooldown, with more tp gained in that time, can have 500 tp to spare, a pug will only get so much use out of it. hes probably better off just swinging again, or using a native 500 tp skill for more damage.

pug second wind, seems great right? but wait it has a high stamina cost, and only heals for like 75% on sub,not only that but its recast is 25% longer, so while i cure myself for 523 every 1 minute, on sub you get 370 every minute and 15 seconds, you may as well equip cure i and do it 2 times, it will cost way less stamina, and heal you for the same amount.


what it comes down to, is people see people using a skill and think they are hax, thinking they are equal to someone on a main job, but they are not. tell a DOW to sub a debuff, see how long it stays on the mob, if it even lands. Its nice to use some of these skills in an emergency but you never come close to the real job at its baliwick. and this only even an option, if you have leveled said job to the appropriate level.
Its just like people thinking that because a conjurer can equip a level 50 chainmail at level 10 means hes getting the same use out of it.