So, what do PALADINS get in 2.1?

[Fyreus]

Why? Paladin off-tank in DPS spec gear does a ridiculous amount of damage and you have Shield Oath to fall back on if you have adds to tank (though, not really even necessary then)

The problem with PLD off tanking is the only 'dps combo' we have is Fast Blade > Riot Blade because if we use our main combo, in Sword Oath, we'll be main tanking in a matter of moments. If they found a way to make the excess MP worthwhile (maybe a Enspell that drains mp or decent healing/Holy damage) then we'll still offer 'nothing to do' as an off tank as opposed to WAR.

*edit* it's also impossible to jump into dps spec gear mid fight and you never know what'll happen to the MT, so jumping into dps gear would seem moot imho.

[WingsofWar]

*edit* it's also impossible to jump into dps spec gear mid fight and you never know what'll happen to the MT, so jumping into dps gear would seem moot imho.

lol that would be awesome if we can have a on-the-fly macro that swaps out all our gear for DPS when we switch to sword oath, and back to tank gear when switching to shield oath.

Anywho, yeah i agree with OT using only FB>RB combo on sword oath. In GarudaHM, I typically have to wait to start attacking or throttle my dps down in order to use our main tank combo. Iv pulled Garuda off a Shield Oath MT many times before, it only takes small stat differences in gear to determine who will pull more aggro. Same goes with TitanHM and its a pain as I see my aggro meter jump when i shouldn't be building that much aggro in the first place.

[Dedayius]

The problem with PLD off tanking is the only 'dps combo' we have is Fast Blade > Riot Blade because if we use our main combo, in Sword Oath, we'll be main tanking in a matter of moments. If they found a way to make the excess MP worthwhile (maybe a Enspell that drains mp or decent healing/Holy damage) then we'll still offer 'nothing to do' as an off tank as opposed to WAR.

*edit* it's also impossible to jump into dps spec gear mid fight and you never know what'll happen to the MT, so jumping into dps gear would seem moot imho.

There's something interesting. Get rid of our terrible cooldowns that are essentially useless and replace it with a damage buff that drains MP while active. Also make sword oath reduce enmity gained so we can use more than a couple of buttons.

[Zakalwe]

There's something interesting. Get rid of our terrible cooldowns that are essentially useless and replace it with a damage buff that drains MP while active. Also make sword oath reduce enmity gained so we can use more than a couple of buttons.

...or even, shudder the thought, make Shield Oath actually give us +aggro, as advertised.

[Leiron]

...or even, shudder the thought, make Shield Oath actually give us +aggro, as advertised.

It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.

The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

[WingsofWar]

It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

Its suppose to, but its not as potent as I might think it should. Yeah when I'm through AK, Flash with Shield Oath produces more hate than Flash with Sword Oath. Sure its working, as i see noticeable difference in holding hate against my party. Where its noticeably broken is when I'm in GarudaHM or TitanHM. Particularly noticed how bad it was when i was off-tanking with a main tank that had identical gear as me. While he was in Shield Oath, i'm in Sword Oath, he started first for the pull with shield lob. then starts with Halon Combo, i shortly follow with Halon Combo too and within seconds we are fighting for aggro. THAT mechanic SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. yet it does.

Anyway, those who call for enmity reduction on sword oath, no.....just no....We still need enmity built during sword oath. Otherwise 30-40 will never use sword oath for dungeons, and sword oath becomes only used during offtanking situations. What we need is stronger divide between enmity built from Shield Oath and enmity built for Sword Oath.

I do wonder, do Defianced WARs fight for aggro with Non-Defianced WARs with equal gear?

[Zakalwe]

It does, seriously, whoever perpetuated the idea that Shield oath doesn't have an enmity modifier is re-re.
Flash generates more enmity with shield oath up than it does with Sword oath.

The issue is the damage loss for a Paladin is 25%, and I suspect the Enmity modifier is only 20%.

Sorry, should have been clearer. I understand that there's a +threat modifier in Shield Oath. It is just that the buff does nothing more than (maybe) make up for the loss in threat from the damage reduction. Seems a tanking stance ought to actually give you real net +threat.

[Churchill]

The problem with PLD off tanking is the only 'dps combo' we have is Fast Blade > Riot Blade because if we use our main combo, in Sword Oath, we'll be main tanking in a matter of moments. If they found a way to make the excess MP worthwhile (maybe a Enspell that drains mp or decent healing/Holy damage) then we'll still offer 'nothing to do' as an off tank as opposed to WAR.

*edit* it's also impossible to jump into dps spec gear mid fight and you never know what'll happen to the MT, so jumping into dps gear would seem moot imho.

Well, personally I know what will happen to the main tank every run. He'll manage CDs properly and healers will pre-cast heals properly or we will start the run over until people stop fucking up.

Our Paladin offtank never pulls hate from me, runs DPS accessories the entire time while in Sword Oath outside of when he needs the -20% mitigation, pulling hate is never an issue.

The extra 200DPS is very welcomed though.

There's something interesting. Get rid of our terrible cooldowns that are essentially useless and replace it with a damage buff that drains MP while active. Also make sword oath reduce enmity gained so we can use more than a couple of buttons.

Why would you want your highest enmity producing Oath to reduce enmity? lol.

[WingsofWar]

Why would you want your highest enmity producing Oath to reduce enmity? lol.

wut? sword oath isn't suppose to generate enmity, shield oath does. Unfortunately both oaths produce enmity, making the enmity Bonus on Shield Oath seems like its slightly broken.

[Giantbane]

wut? sword oath isn't suppose to generate enmity, shield oath does. Unfortunately both oaths produce enmity, making the enmity Bonus on Shield Oath seems like its slightly broken.

My understanding of the tank stances for both classes is that they only generate enough extra enmity to match the enmity generated without the tank stance on. So 20% more for Shield Oath, 25% more for Defiance. I understand that the idea that the tank stances generated 2x threat was from one of the beta builds and was changed to its current form before release.

Anyhow, it's not that Sword Oath has an inherent enmity boosting effect like Shield Oath, it's just that you get the full enmity of the normal stance (which matches what Shield Oath provides) and then you throw the bonus enmity provided by Sword Oath on top of that which is where they pull ahead.

Why would you want your highest enmity producing Oath to reduce enmity? lol.

Sword Oath is your DPS stance. Why would you want to have your DPS stance generate more enmity than your tank stance? I agree that Sword Oath should get an enmity reduction property so it may be properly used as a DPS stance.