Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

[Fire_Lotus]

I like you you just want to be considerably better than Warrior in every way now. It's blatantly obvious that you just want to play a "Master Race" here, and care nothing about balance.

The new IB brings us up to par with your shield Oath for (At best) 12 seconds every minute, at the cost of a Damage Buff we stack. That's 20% of the time that Shield oath is ALWAYS WORKING. What is so hard to grasp about this concept?

Wizhard believes the balancing problem also lies with Defiance since it will now 1) Increase your base HP 2) Increase all healing done to you by 20% 3) Increase Emnity generated

Actually, I'm not sure it will still increase base HP.

But, if you also tag on a straight life-leech + the Pseudo-Rampart Effect from Inner Beast, it allows you to mitigate predictable spike damage much better than a PLD, even if you don't have Infuriate up.

In Titan/T5, it comes in the form of Tableflips/Dead Sentence, which you can easily squeeze in 5 Wrath between each one to mitigate them then pop IB, removing the dire need for Infuriate.

This is discounting preemptively debuffing oncoming damage using Storm's Path.

TBH, I think PLDs and WARs will be the same overall for most players (This is bad and good >.>), but the changes to WAR will better reward exceptional performance. Whereas PLD effectiveness doesn't really change regardless of well or badly a player performs.

EDIT: No seriously, SE rework Awareness please.

[ZDamned]

SNIP

It also discounts the Paladins Rage of Halone Debuff then too...

Defiance is the Paladins Shield Oath, and our trade off as we are currently is terrible in comparison to a Paladin. We lose out on more damage while our bonus to healing received is only 15%, and removed when we utilize our abilities.

[TouchandFeel]

Actually, I'm not sure it will still increase base HP.

The change notes don't say anything about removing the 25% HP increase, so it is probably safe to assume that it is staying around.

[glen7187]

Forgive me, I still don't see the imbalance. I as a Paladin (mind you, I'm no "expert" paladin) rotate my CDs and probably have like 6-10 seconds worth of time where I have no extra mitigation on me? The WAR didn't have good CDs to compete with PLD and now they have an IB to give them that 20% every 12 seconds which from the surface seems to be balanced with PLD CDs... I haven't done the math or anything just from what I'm looking at here. And even with the extra mitigation, the WAR doesn't really have the highest amount of mitigation that the PLD has, am I correct? So the WAR is still a WAR and is not a PLD and still has it's own WAR mechanic so to speak. They need to put some kind of mitigation in there since that's the best method for scaling against incoming damage. I guess they could have used shields/barriers but then it's still the same concept.

[dark494]

This is how I look at why a lot of pld's (and some wars) feel these changes are really excessive:

• Enmity increases across the board (really?)
• Mitigation in Vengeance
• Mitigation in Inner Beast
• Debuff/Mitigation on Storm's Path
• Holmgang now a "Hallowed Ground" but better, with a lasso effect
• Permanent convalescence on Defiance, stacks with convalescence > higher than pld's now

This doesn't even sound like a war anymore. This is a pld hybrid, spec'd for better damage. Do people realize that this can actually give wars better mitigation across the board than pld? Shield oath and defiance are, arguably, much more even with each other now with the permanent convalescene effect. You have a much more spammable mitigation tool in IB and vengeance together than what pld has in their kit thanks to all the 180 second CD's for pld's skills (one of which doesn't mitigate magic damage anyway).

*SNIP, b/c 1000 characters*

[dark494]

Stuff

(continued...)
You have what appears to be a much better version of hallowed ground in Holmgang (there are things that can kill you through hallowed ground, but apparently your hp can't go below 1 with holmgang so there's your plus), with added lasso effect available in addition to provoke for grabbing wayward mobs. It's also on a much, much smaller cooldown than hallowed ground so enjoy using it more often. And more enmity increases! I don't know about you but I felt that enmity wasn't an issue for war, but apparently it needed more buffs to it everywhere which makes me wonder if a pld can even keep up against a war's enmity generation with those buffs.

I'm glad these changes aren't set in stone yet, and will still go through much testing and further balancing, but by themselves these changes are, frankly, too jarring from what war was intended to be. The line between war and pld is starting to blur, and I'd rather they each did something that differentiated themselves from each other, not gained each other's abilities and styles.

[TouchandFeel]

(continued...)
You have what appears to be a much better version of hallowed ground in Holmgang (there are things that can kill you through hallowed ground, but apparently your hp can't go below 1 with holmgang so there's your plus), with added lasso effect available in addition to provoke for grabbing wayward mobs. It's also on a much, much smaller cooldown than hallowed ground so enjoy using it more often.

While I agree with some of your points, I'm not really convinced yet that the proposed new version of Holmgang is better than Hallowed Ground, at least not for the most of the reasons that you are giving. While some attacks do go through Hallowed Ground (mainly boss super attacks that are meant to be have to be soaked or are meant to be insta kills) that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't also go through the revised Holmgang. Hallowed Ground prevents the PLD from taking any damage, while Holmgang allows the WAR to take damage but not die. As both abilities prevent the player from dying but the WAR will still need to be healed or they could easily die after the ability wears off, I'm going to give Hallowed Ground the edge on overall survivability. However Holmgang does get that cool pull and hold utility which I could see being very useful for getting bosses into the spot you want them and helping holding them there. So i'll give Holmgang a little edge on utility, however at this point I still think Hallowed has the edge. The only thing that I think could potentially tip the scales in favor of Holmgang is the 180 second cool down versus Hallowed's 420 second one.
Could Holmgang potentially be better than Hallowed? Maybe, but I don't think that based on what info has been provided so far that it is a definite win. I'd really have to see the changed Holmgang in action to be able to make that call.

[glen7187]

I don't think Defiance becomes closer to Shield Oath because of the Permanent Convalescence. Healers being able to give you 20% more Cure doesn't equate to 20% off damage taken when the damage taken is huge hits. Not to mention that you still have to take the hit before you can be healed from it while the mitigation means you didn't even take 20% of it. And I don't see why Holmgang is OP to Hallowed Ground when HG you don't take any damage at all, Holmgang you still take damage but you can't die, so you still have to be healed while HG the healers can take a break on you. Just my opinion but I still think the tanks are even and complement each other instead of one being better than the other.

[Techro]

I came back to this thread only to find PLDs QQing...wow..look children you are still better than warriors at tanking. Warriors are just now on par with your abilities, some would still say subpar but by a very small margin. Just enjoy the game no one cares if you can press defensive cool downs in a sequential/systematical order.

[Enjin]

Holmgang will not be better than Hallowed Ground for one simple reason. You don't take damage during hallowed ground -- You have to take damage to receive stacks -- Therefore a smart paladin can bypass mechanics and give himself a double tanking rotation in Turn 2, and elsewhere with the vulnerability mechanic.