Thread: Warrior "buff" in 2.1: not what we are expecting?

Originally Posted by Vortok

I agree with what I saw someone suggest for Mercy Stroke - it'd be better if it gave the heal if the mob dies within 2-5 seconds of using it. Trying to get a killing blow as a tank (especially with Defiance damage penalty) is a bit of a tall task. It does mean that currently I get to do a mental fistpump when I do get that killing blow though, haha.

It should just be that if you use it while the Mob has <20% Health, then you get the Heal. The whole "Killing Blow" is kind of strange. At least with that, on bosses where from 20% to 0% is a couple minutes there's some actual utility.

@ Phreak

Wrong again. Cause if Defiance Healing increase was Pre DMG mitigation 25% would meant that the Warrior would survived with 250HP at the end of the day and removing the 5% more Max HP of 250HP he received, he will be dead on the dot.

As such the event, Warrior ( Max HP : 5000 based 6250 Defiance Heal: 1000+25% Damage: 5000 Base Mitigation : 50% Per hit/heal variance: -1250 )
Turn 1 : 6250 - 1250 = 5000
Turn 2 : 5000 - 1250 = 3750
Turn 3 : 3750 - 1250 = 2500
Turn 4 : 2500 - 2500 +250 (Pre DMG Mitigation Pre Heal) ; 2500 - 2500 (Post DMG mitigation) = 250 ; Dead
Turn 5 : Dead

If heals was 20% (Turn Variance = -1300)
Turn 1 : 4950
Turn 2 : 3650
Turn 3 : 2350
Turn 4 : 50 (2350 - 2500 + 200) (Pre Heal only Healing increase considered as Pre DMG mitigation) ; Dead

Paladin (Max HP = 5000 base all variables fixed, per turn = -1000)
Turn 1 : 4000
Turn 2 : 3000
Turn 3 : 2000
Turn 4 : Dead before heal occurs

So do tell me where did my math went wrong? Hmm?

+20% healing in itself =/= -20% DMG reduction it has to go hand in hand with +20% Max HP to be on equal standing.

For your 800 healing example, well if you see it like that sure Paladin is stronger if your heals are barely keeping you alive. But if there is time for extra heals the Warrior has his reservoir of HP replenish and would survive better than the Paladin. Same example just substitute heal to 800/960

Healing +20% (Variance per turn = -1540)
Turn 1 = 4710
Turn 2 = 3170
Turn 3 = 1630
Turn 4 = -710 HP DEAD (Pre DMG mitigation) ; -810 HP DEAD(Post DMG mitigation)
Turn 5 = -1450 HP DEAD
Turn 6 = -2990 HP DEAD

Paladin (Variance per turn = -1200)
Turn 1 = 3800
Turn 2 = 2600
Turn 3 = 1400
Turn 4 = -600 HP DEAD
Turn 5 = -1000 HP DEAD
Turn 6 = -2200 HP DEAD

Healing +25% (Variance per turn = -1500)
Turn 1 = 4750
Turn 2 = 3250
Turn 3 = 1750
Turn 4 = -550 HP DEAD (Pre DMG mitigation) ; -750HP DEAD (Post DMG mitigation)
Turn 5 = -1250 HP DEAD
Turn 6 = -1750 HP DEAD

Hence it can be said that if your heals can't level out incoming damage Paladin numbers look good. But you are still in a losing battle. However, if your heals gets stronger Warrior has more insurance policy due to Max HP buffer. Therefore the hypothesis is that with struggling heal Paladin reaches critical failure faster than a Warrior just cause they have 5% less Max HP.

For those who are bad at numbers the verdict is...
If your healer can keep up with the damage Warrior will always be the safe choice. If they can't Paladin will most likely die first though in a boss scenario both are likely to die at the same time. If heals are more than the DMG intake, it does nothing for the Paladin whereas it replenishes Warriors HP reservoir.

Giving +25% Healing Received +25% Max HP is going to put Defiance above Shield Oath not in line. You wouldn't want to make more Paladins cry wouldn't you? Sides the reason why they don't seem to want to give that extra 5% cause in putting in new IB assuming 439 Heal per 15 seconds and 1 turn equates to 1 GCD which is 2.5s its 73.167 HP extra heals per turn. So your 800 base heal +20% would be 1033.167 HP per turn 1073.167 HP per turn if it was 25%.

In case you were wondering Infuriate if considered a passive will generate 1 Wrath per 12 seconds that is how you get 1 IB per 15 seconds on the longest case with the shortest case being at 12.5s (No Skill Speed).

Say even if you wouldn't want to consider IB, new Storm Path (264 Hit assuming tank rotation will be BB > SP Combo Based on my +0 Warrior with Gryphonskin iLvl 80 AvG) would also net 132 HP heal per 15 seconds that is 22 HP per GCD turn on average. I suppose getting to 180 wouldn't be impossible if I'm at full iLvl 90 with Gryphonskin Accessories.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

Giving +25% Healing Received +25% Max HP is going to put Defiance above Sword Oath not in line.

Why are you comparing Defiance, the tank stance, to sword oath, which is a DPS stance for Paladin?
Let alone it absolutely IS equivalent to shield oath.

Mitigation of 20% = 25% more eHP.
Its BASIC math.
1/.8 = 1.25 = 25% more eHP

Will post more, i need to dig through your posts because I am unsure what numbers you are utilizing to achieve your conclusion so one sec.

Incoming edits.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

snip

Pardon but...what was this example trying to prove exactly?
All it did was illustrate that they would both die at the same time, but this was only due to the extreme amount of damage being taken.
If you alter the amount of damage taken, you'll find that a 20% damage mitigation will win out over the 25% more health and 20% extra healing provided.

Furthermore, let us do a final comparison of the situation BEFORE the final killing blow.

Paladin: 2000/5000
Warrior: 2350/6250

Now here is the thing, the incoming damage is 2500 correct?
Now because the damage is so extreme; half the HP pool of a Paladin; your time line is so short that it doesn't show how much better a 20% DR is.

If the healing was higher where death would still come, but later on, the HP lead a Paladin would possess over a Warrior would show itself.

Furthermore, a comparison of the maximum HP is actually appropriate simply because 20% DR function has having 25% MORE hp. Simply because the damage being taken is being reduced to roughly 75% of its original potency.

Due to this, it takes 25% LONGER to kill a Paladin.
You can easily do a comparison using a 20% HP buff vs 20% damage mitigation with no healing, and the Paladin will ALWAYS survive longer than the War provided the damage isn't so extreme as to not matter.

So in reality, when you take this into account this is how their health pools actually look when you factor the effect of Shield oath.

Paladin 2500/6250
vs
WAR 2350/6250

Mind blown.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

This shows that Shield Oath is stronger than Defiance? No. Cause if Defiance Healing increase was Pre DMG mitigation (aka Healed for the extra 20% -200HP before he took the damage) he would have survived with 50 HP left. Hence Defiance has a lead so long as you don't die due to max HP. People are doing the Defiance math wrong all the time.

Bad logic.
You are trying to suggest that if the 20% extra healing was turned into mitigation, that the Warrior would have had an advantage.
Well of course, you just tacked on an additional 25% more HP to the WAR.
Having 20% more healing is NOT the same as having 20% damage mitigation, your very post illustrates this.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

But as a tank you would ask me which one would I prefer? I'd say Shield Oath cause it gives healers less heart attacks, and if such above scenario occur where a little less DMG taken could have saved the Paladin and not the Warrior. I'm talking small damage like 2 point worth of damage would meant -148 HP on Warrior and 1 HP remaining on Paladin.

Let us assume a Warrior has a 20% HP buff instead of 25%

PLD with 1k health
WAR with 1.2k health
Both take 200 damage each

PLD mitigates that 200 damage by 20%, so its 160 every time you are hit.
WAR doesn't mitigate anything. Just has more HP.

After 6 hits
PLD= 40 HP left
WAR= Dead.


Edit: Ruminate did it so much more nicely.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

With 50% Base mitigation and 5000 Base HP.

A Defiance warrior would have : 5000 * 1.25 * 2 = 12500 eHP
A Shield Oath Paladin would have : 5000 * 2 * 1.2 = 12000 eHP

Again, you are doing your math wrong for shield oath.
It is 1/.8 = 1.25

THAT is the multiplier you should be utilizing. You are confused on the eHP because you are doing the math incorrectly.

1000hp PLD
1250 WAR.

Damage is in coming for 300
Paladin takes 240 damage.
WAR takes 300.

It takes 5 hits to kill the Paladin. 240 x 5= 1200
It takes 5 hits to kill the WAR. 300 x 5 = 1500

If 20% damage mitigation = 20% eHP, then here is what would happen.

PLD 1200 eHP
WAR 1250 eHp

It takes 4 hits to kill the Paladin. 300 x 4 = 1200
WAR lives with 50 HP left.

20% damage mitigation =/= 20% eHP.
It is 25% eHP.

So a WAR and PLD have equal eHP.
They do NOT have equal HP bonuses.

Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

a 1000 Heal would mean ...
20% Heal increase = 1000 * 2 * 1.2 = 2400 eHP
For Paladin = 1000 * 2 * 1.2 = 2400 eHP
25% Heal increase = 1000 * 2 * 1.25 = 2500 eHP

No no no.
20% mitigation also means its equivalent to a 25% healing bonus for the exact same reason's I gave above.

For this exact same reason, a WAR in Defiance deals 33% less damage compared to without defiance.
a PLD does 25% less damage in Shield oath compared to no Shield Oath.