So what exactly IS the issue with Warrior?

[Kitru]

1) the PLD suffers more than the WAR when switching stances, the PLD not only loses the 20% due to Shield Oath, he's losing something like the 16%? (no idea, i think kitru had it around this during one of his/her math fests).

Actually, in the math, it showed that PLD in Sword Oath and WAR outside of it do about the same damage (WAR has a 1.7% advantage); PLD pulled ahead when running with a WAR thanks to getting bonus damage from the slashing debuff. PLDs often are seen to do less damage because they're not using CoS and Spirits Within like they're supposed to. SW and CoS make up 15% of a PLD's total DPS.

2) Defiance isn't exactly a straight 25% penalty either. Defiance also brings 10% boosted crit with full wrath.

If you want to get technical, it's a 4.76% increase in damage. Factoring in the 25% damage reduction, it puts WAR at 78.57% and that's assuming you maintain 100% uptime on Wrath V.

unchained (which can be stacked with berserk & Inner Release for some excellent burst)

Stacking up CDs amounts to less than you might think when you are forced to delay them to stack them. You actually get more out of using Internal Release only when you've got Berserk *and* Unchained active and, even then, it's not that much (delaying it by 50% reduces the contribution to 2/3rds of what it would otherwise do over time; Berserk adds 40% damage and Unchained 33% which puts the total average contribution at 124% of the mean; since you can only do that once every 3 minutes, which is once every 3 IRs, it'll net you an extra 8.15% of its already low 2.72% increase to total damage; stacking gives you an extra .222% damage, which is less than a percent).

So in ideal conditions the WAR should be pulling ahead while tanking.

You're forgetting about the 50 extra potency per GCD that a PLD gets completely off-GCD. WAR doesn't get anything of the kind. Plus, Berserk is laughably weak compared to Fight or Flight (Berserk is an 8.89% increase to auto-attack damage over time and a 3.33% increase to special attack damage; auto-attack damage is roughly 25% of your total damage, so that means that Berserk adds a whole 4.72% to average damage; Fight or Flight is a 10% increase to damage). WAR gets a lot more *multipliers* to its damage, but PLD gets a lot more straight up added. They end up doing within 5% of each other on OT damage, MT damage, and MT enmity.

[Giantbane]

Actually, in the math, it showed that PLD in Sword Oath and WAR outside of it .... [and stuff]

My reply was to (paraphrasing): if WAR & PLD are roughly balanced outside of tank stance, why would WAR be doing more DPS when both are in tank stance?

my point was that this is because the PLD loses more switching to tank stance because:

1) The PLD loses Sword Oath and then suffers the 20% penalty of shield oath. So they lose more than just 20% damage by switching stances.
2) The WAR doesn't just lose 25% dmg, they gain some of that back (not all, just some). PLD doesn't get any dmg boosters that counteract the damage loss from Shield Oath, so it's just lose 20% damage.

EDIT: another thought: you might also consider that the PLD is now getting hit a lot more, which effects Spirit's Within. So a PLD either needs to time the use of Spirit's Within to execute when at/near full health (so not always using on cooldown) or suffer the penalty from not being at full health. While this is harder to actually quantify, it is going to be another effective difference between DPS stance and Tank stance.

Therefore, it seems to me that the WAR should be putting out more damage in tank stance than the PLD. Are you debating that?

If you want to get technical, it's a 4.76% increase in damage. Factoring in the 25% damage reduction, it puts WAR at 78.57% and that's assuming you maintain 100% uptime on Wrath V.

If I wanted to get technical, I wouldn't have said it *almost* makes up for

EDIT2:

Stacking up CDs amounts to less than you might think when you are forced to delay them to stack them.

For the purpose of including Unchained above, it still provides *some* boost when you use it that isn't available without defiance. So whatever the boost is, it's still acting counter to the 25% reduction of Defiance. Something that doesn't happen with a PLD and Shield Oath's penalty.

However, as an aside, delaying either Unchained or Berserk for the pure purpose of stacking them shouldn't be necessary. Unchained at 180s and Berserk at 90s means Unchained should always line up with Berserk (both used on cooldown). The only reason this shouldn't happen is if you're delaying their use for non DPS purposes. Say, you are saving Wrath/Infuriate for Inner Beast usage, saving Berserk for an Inner Beast/Second Wind/Blood Bath combo, or saving both for an upcoming burst DPS phase. Even Inner Release at 60s, if you want to use it on cooldown (whether or not that's advisable), will still line up with both Unchained and Berserk every time Unchained is off cooldown provided they were all used at the same time (well, give or take actual cast times).

So as long as we're talking about the boost from Unchained, it should be considered to be used with Berserk and Inner Release because *if* you are in a scenario where you can use Unchained (DPS/Burst DPS more important than incoming heals/Inner Beast), I would think you should also usually be able to stack it with Berserk/Inner Release without penalty.

[Paikis]

Actually, in the math...

The math is all well and good, but it simply doesn't reflect reality.

By your own thread (linked in your sig):

WAR (BB>BB>SE):
((2 * (630) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 325.3 potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 297.73 potency per GCD

You failed to include Vengeance (50 potency with 12.5% up time, assuming you get hit once per GCD) which is another 6.25 potency per GCD per target.

These numbers are against a single target only, and while in their respective tanking stances. So we're looking at about a 15% damage advantage to the Warrior on a single target. But there are some other issues you failed to address.

1. What about multiple targets? Overpower is 120 potency per GCD per target, Vengeance is 6.25 potency per target, Steel Cyclone is also a large chunk of potency. This quickly ramps up as number of targets increases. Circle of Scorn simply doesn't compare amd F;ash does 0 damage.

2. Gearing. While it is true that anything a WAR can wear, a PLD can wear as well (AF gear excluded) how many PLDs do you see gearing for STR? Meanwhile the Gryphonskin jewellery is considered by many to be BiS for Warriors. 45 STR works out to be around 15% more damage and that doesn't count the secondary stats like crit/determination that you can also meld onto them.

[Giantbane]

You failed to include Vengeance (50 potency with 12.5% up time, assuming you get hit once per GCD) which is another 6.25 potency per GCD per target.

Oh yea! I forgot Vengeance, good call. Another boost the WAR gets only while tanking. Unfortunately the cool down on that one does not line up so nicely that it can be used with Unchained/Berserk on cool down without staggering it.

[Kitru]

You failed to include Vengeance (50 potency with 12.5% up time, assuming you get hit once per GCD) which is another 6.25 potency per GCD per target.

Those numbers also inflate that value of Berserk by 20% (was using 50% +dam instead of the 40% that it actually is) and don't completely ignores the fact that you often don't want to use Berserk asap because of timing issues, like wanting to prep a big IB or making sure you're not locked out with Pacification when an add spawns. The inclusion of Vengeance just offsets the correction in Berserk.

((2 * (630) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + 83.33 * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 318.6 potency per GCD

Add in Vengeance and you get...

((2 * (630) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0333 + (83.33 + 6.25) * 1.0888) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 325.2 potency per GCD

So we're looking at about a 15% damage advantage to the Warrior on a single target. But there are some other issues you failed to address.

How are you getting 15% out of that? 325 / 297 = 1.094; WAR would have to get up to 340 for it to be a 15% advantage.

Keep in mind that you're ignoring how PLD benefits from the WAR debuff. As soon as you start looking at WAR + PLD in 8 man content, the WAR damage advantage vanishes completely and generally results in WAR doing *less* damage. You could feasibly give some of the credit to WAR but that gets into a kind of fuzzy place (since the WAR is doing it for itself and not the entire group).

1. What about multiple targets? Overpower is 120 potency per GCD per target, Vengeance is 6.25 potency per target, Steel Cyclone is also a large chunk of potency. This quickly ramps up as number of targets increases. Circle of Scorn simply doesn't compare.

I love it when people bring up AoE damage as a massive WAR advantage because Flash doesn't deal *any* damage and Overpower does (not to mention Vengeance). Of *course* WAR deals more AoE damage than PLD; PLD has next to *nothing* because it has *other* advantages over Overpower. Flash it pretty much free whereas Overpower costs a metric fuckton, not to mention that Flash has a larger area of effect (generally easier to use as well *and* faster activating) *and* has a debuff attached to it. What PLD gets out of Flash isn't damage; it gets every *other* imaginable advantage you could get out of an ability. Because of that cost, WAR can really only use it 1-2 times unless it's willing to stop attacking for an extended period afterwards. PLD can Flash til its out and get enough manage back every ~12 seconds to use it again (without relying on Riot Blade).

Tank AoE capability is not balanced around damage. It's balanced around a holistic analysis of the abilities.

2. Gearing. While it is true that anything a WAR can wear, a PLD can wear as well (AF gear excluded) how many PLDs do you see gearing for STR? Meanwhile the Gryphonskin jewellery is considered by many to be BiS for Warriors. 45 STR works out to be around 15% more damage and that doesn't count the secondary stats like crit/determination that you can also meld onto them.

A PLD gets the exact same benefits out of the STR gearing that WAR does: higher damage, higher parry value/rate. I've seen *plenty* of PLDs going with Gryphonskin and Rose Gold because you're getting 50 STR/DEX at the cost of 25 VIT, which is an *amazing* conversion rate. WARs just talk about doing it more because they want to increase their self heals.

[Paikis]

Those numbers also inflate that value of Berserk by 20% (was using 50% +dam instead of the 40% that it actually is) and don't completely ignores the fact that you often don't want to use Berserk asap because of timing issues, like wanting to prep a big IB or making sure you're not locked out with Pacification when an add spawns.

Yes, your numbers do ignore a lot of things. They also can't account for a lot of things. That's because the numbers are based on god knows how many assumptions that simply don't pan out in real-world examples. It is the best that's available, but the parsers tell a very different story. Maybe the parsers are wrong, maybe they all have well geared WARs and poorly geared PLDs. I don't know what the reason is, but every parse I've ever seen with 1 WAR and 1 PLD has had the WAR a good 20% more damage in front of the PLD.

When the maths says one thing, and the tests say something else, I start thinking maybe there's something the maths hasn't accounted for.

[Maelwys]

I don't know what the reason is, but every parse I've ever seen with 1 WAR and 1 PLD has had the WAR a good 20% more damage in front of the PLD.

When the maths says one thing, and the tests say something else, I start thinking maybe there's something the maths hasn't accounted for.

One reason might be WAR's damage resistance debuff.

Most impartial "same-gear/stats" parses I've seen have been a bit iffy on ability rotations... and I'm really not sure why, because PLD's rotation is ridiculously easy: Spam RoH combo, use SW and CoS and FoF on cooldown. Shield Swipe and Mercy Stoke if they pop up. [Optional: Fracture after it wears and you're not mid-combo - IIRC it's a very slight gain in PLD DPS. Usage will depend on TP level: if you're likely to bottom out, don't use it]. Job Done.

If you pick Random Tanks in game (not purposely equally geared/stat'ed) and ask them what their DPS is like, it's another matter...

Firstly, in game more WARs tend to have +Str (via gear and/or point distribution) than PLDs - because of the mob "Must increase Self-Heals" mentality. The flip side is that PLDs tend to have more +Vit for the same reason, so they're generally seen as a lot tougher than WARs before you even factor in cooldowns. If you pick a random WAR and a random PLD, then stick both in i90 Allagan armor and melded Gryphonskin accessories... then chances are they'd be a LOT closer in both damage and survivability.

Secondly, on a lot of endgame content PLDs tend to use "Circle of Scorn" pretty much on Cooldown, but save "Spirits Within" to use situationally. This is intentional - Silence diminishing returns is a [Censored], which means you have to be rather careful with SW usage on the likes of the later half of AK (Succubus) and certain Coil Turns...

[symba]

The only reason warriors seem to have higher dps is because they have a better dps rotation they can use that won't take aggro/threat. Which in reality makes them a lot more practical for DPSing on any encounter. HS>MAIM>SE is 203.33 Potency/GCD (plus it comes with a 20% damage buff & 10% slashing resist) and 66.67 TP/GCD. Paladins have FB>RB which is 190 Potency/GCD and 75 TP/GCD.

[Maelwys]

The only reason warriors seem to have higher dps is because they have a better dps rotation they can use that won't take aggro/threat. Which in reality makes them a lot more practical for DPSing on any encounter. HS>MAIM>SE is 203.33 Potency/GCD (plus it comes with a 20% damage buff & 10% slashing resist) and 66.67 TP/GCD. Paladins have FB>RB which is 190 Potency/GCD and 75 TP/GCD.

Again, CoS and SW are being left out...

(PLD can weave in RoH as long as you monitor your hate levels and only switch back to Riot Blade if you start being in danger of pulling threat off the "other" Tank - you generally want to be #2 on the hate list anyway!!)