DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

[AesirTyr]

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.

I agree that comparing raw potency between different jobs is not definitive. But I'm using raw potency to compare two different attacks by the same job. DRG DoTs vs. DRG non-DoTs. MNK DoTs vs. MNK non-DoTs. Potency should be a pretty good indication of relative damage output on one character, since the Skill/Spell Speed (and other factors) on the same character on the same job should be the same.

However, I agree with your larger point. It's difficult to get raw damage numbers from potency between different jobs, especially if you don't look at the conditions surrounding the use of that skill.

For example, the OP suggests that Dragonfire Dive is much worse than BLM's Flare. I think this is silly.

Dragonfire Dive has a potency of 250 to all mobs in the area. Dragonfire Dive looks awesome, and it is awesome.

Flare has a potency of 260 to all mobs in the area. Flare looks awesome, and it is awesome. But Flare has a 4 second cast time (depending on Spell Speed/Astral Ice). And Flare uses all of the BLM's MP.

10 more potency doesn't sound like much. The actual damage numbers can be larger, depending on the circumstances.

But then again, imagine if Dragonfire Dive required you to stand in one place for 4 seconds before it worked. And imagine if it used all of the DRG's TP. I think that would be much worse.

That's why simply comparing DPS output is not really helpful. The circumstances are different.

DRG is helpful to the rest of the party in ways other than simply putting out large DPS numbers.

2 good Stuns, an amazing Slow, a piercing debuff that also helps BRD, ranged attacks, ability to close distance to ranged targets quickly, jump attacks that are variable depending on where you want to end up, large HP pool, ability to move while attacking, etc.

I don't think it's enough to say that DRG isn't putting up the highest DPS numbers, so they need a buff (and it hasn't been shown that they're putting up sub-par DPS numbers). I think you need to recognize that they're helpful to the party in other ways. That's what "utility" means. DRG's utility is not just its DPS number.

[AesirTyr]

I think whenever a Dragoon uses Jump, it should have a 5% chance of landing wrong and breaking its' leg.

RNG hates me, so I'd probably end up getting a "world first" for relic +1 crutches.

[Haoma]

RNG hates me, so I'd probably end up getting a "world first" for relic +1 crutches.

+500% Potency when used with Dragonfire Dive.

[Acaelus]

I just checked the raw data, according to this make believe pie chart and graph I made up for this debate, it clearly says this is a video game.

RL 2 hard.

[Zumi]

This is why it's very annoying to play drg. No other class in the game has a rotation that annoying. Heavy thrust lasts only 20 seconds, and one of the 4 dots/debuff is always falling off.

[Altena]

Have you played any other classes? Because the same thing is true for literally every class in the game.

For example, MNK:

MNK DoTs:
Touch of Death = 270 total potency (over 30 seconds)
Demolish = 240 total potency (over 18 seconds)

Outside of those attacks, MNK's highest potency attack is 180.

That is because MNK's damage comes from stacked GL / low GCD - and not high potency. While they do use DoT's, and while they are the highest potency skills that MNK have, they aren't really the bread and butter of the class..

DRG on the other hand predominantly focuses on keeping buffs up, keeping DoTs up, and just standard filler. ie Their "optimal" damage is based around keeping those DoT's... On a MNK you can do just fine spamming a 123 rotation on the flank (as I proved earlier in my post).

BLM's DoTs:
Thunder 3 = 340 total potency (over 24 seconds)

It's actually 280 potency for Thunder 3..
The base damage for Thunder 3 goes upto 340 if you get a Thundercloud proc.
When that is the case, the total damage for Thunder 3 goes upto a staggering 620 potency? I am terrible at math..
of course that is offset depending on how quickly Thundercloud actually procs as you waste the rest of the current Thunder when you refresh it (kind of).

So basically the potency is anywhere from 375 (Thunder 3 base dmg + 1 tick) to 620 (if Thundercloud procs on the last tick)

That's even higher than Flare!

With a Thundercloud proc, yes.
Without, then no it is not. Well it is if you are speaking in raw potency, however Flare will only ever be used under Astral Fire- so the raw potency of Flare isn't very comparable at all.

In fact, all DoTs have higher total potency than standard attacks.

Yes but you are missing my point. DoT's are pretty much the bread and butter of DRG's damage. If you don't maintain DoTs then you will do crap damage.. Pretty simple really.
The other classes however are less reliant on the damage from the actual DoT - and more reliant on the additional effects / procs that go with them.
MNK as mentioned earlier, is more focussed on lowering GCD so they can fit more skills in. It also means you can squeeze an extra skill in before having to refresh your DoT.

And there's a very simple reason for that. Using DoTs requires you to balance the effects over time vs. the benefit of an immediately strong attack.

The reason is even more simple then that. It's so you cannot just sit there and spam the highest potency skill over and over.. Why would anyone ever use Full Thrust combo if Chaos Thrust potency was instant? That is the only real reason that the highest potency skills are DoT.

If the mob is going to die soon, then you want to skip the DoTs and use standard attacks. But if the mob is going to live for a long time, you want to use the DoTs. If DoTs were just as strong as standard attacks, there would be literally no benefit to ever using DoTs.

Basically standard stuff that a 2 year old already knows. If the mob is not going to survive long enough to last the full duration then the DoT is useless. However I think you are forgetting that we are talking about anything worth a damn here... For the most part things stay alive longer then 30 secs. When they don't - then that's when DRG relies on Full Thrust - which is garbage in comparison to what other classes have to offer. Hence why the original statement - their spike damage is crap.

In other words, if the DoTs were as strong as standard attacks -- which is what you seem to be asking for -- then there would be no reason to ever use DoTs. SE should just take them out of the game. Because why would you use an attack that does 150 potency spread over 30 seconds, rather than an attack that does 200 potency immediately?

Why does everyone assume I am demanding things that I don't even mention? I am simply saying that DRG damage needs to be buffed to be comparable to MNK. I don't really care how it's done.. It just needs to be done somehow. Not once did I say "buff xxxx skill because"... I simply said DRG dmg in general needs to be buffed...

Moreover, as you admit, most of DRG's damage does not come from DoTs. Most of their damage comes from standard attacks. And DRG's combination of quick buffs and powerful attacks with longer cooldowns means that they're geared toward spike damage. The fact that their highest potency attacks are DoTs just means that their DoTs are useful; it does not mean that DRG is only a sustained damage class. It means they can continue to do sustained damage even when their "spike" damage is on cooldown.

Their damage comes from maintaining DoT's and buffs, and filling in the gaps with off GCD stuff (which is practically on GCD anyway because of animation lock). So yes the primary focus to deal good damage on DRG is maintaining DOT... I never said that "you don't fill the gaps with filler", in fact I think I actually posted on multiple counts, my rotation - which happens to be practically the exact same rotation that everyone else does... I think you are arguing semantics here. Basically what I have been saying this whole time here: The primary focus / only thing you have to really pay attention to on DRG is keeping all buffs and DoT's up. The rest is simply filler.

As Hyrist said, I think DRG's have great utility right now. The fact that their piercing debuff helps BRD, too, is huge, especially considering that BRD is probably the only DPS class that's considered practically mandatory for the Coil right now.

So wait a sec.. The only reason you bring a DRG is so you can buff 1 other player's damage? Never knew my role as the only 2 handed, "heavy" DPS class in the game just happened to turn into a support role for an Archer... Also the statement the only DPS class that's considered mandatory is also incorrect. In fact, Turn 1 you don't even need a BRD... In addition to this, T2 and 4 you pretty much need a BLM if not for the AoE damage in T4 alone.. T5 you need at least 1 caster for LBing snakes..

But I would be curious how you think they can add utility to DRG. I'm generally in favor of making classes more useful. If you can suggest a way to make DRG more useful to a party, I'd love to hear it. But it sounds like you're only disappointed that other classes are parsing higher DPS than DRG on certain fights. If that's your complaint, then I'd respectfully suggest that you worry more about winning fights, and concentrate less on who's parsing highest.

I am not one to look at the parse for the most part and cry over it. In fact I don't really care who parses the highest in my coil group - and honestly I couldn't even tell you who the most consistent is. My point in this whole thread is balance. I like to play a job and know that I am pulling my own weight, and that people aren't getting disadvantaged by me choosing a particular class to min/max over another..

Unfortunately this is the case for DRG in its current state. If you can take something that works better - then why wouldn't you? Unforunately this is the case for practically every fight in the game in its current state.

[Aegis]

Why does everyone assume I am demanding things that I don't even mention? I am simply saying that DRG damage needs to be buffed to be comparable to MNK.

And other people are arguing that the damage is comparable already. While MNK has a higher DPS ceiling it is rarely possible to achieve that ceiling in most fights. (You seem to think only Garuda causes MNK to lose GL3 regularly, I posted a few pages ago arguing that a large portion of endgame events cause MNK to lose GL3 regularly).

I understand that you feel that even with interruptions to GL3 MNK still far exceeds DRG's damage (to the point where they are not even comparable). Others on here do not feel that is the case and the burden of proof is on you to back up this assertion.

[MisakiSatomi]

If DRGs had the same dmg as MNKs(or even just a little bit behind), every MNK would switch to DRG. Ha.. ha.

[Altena]

And other people are arguing that the damage is comparable already. While MNK has a higher DPS ceiling it is rarely possible to achieve that ceiling in most fights. (You seem to think only Garuda causes MNK to lose GL3 regularly, I posted a few pages ago arguing that a large portion of endgame events cause MNK to lose GL3 regularly).

And I posted a rebuttle to this that proves you can maintain GL3 on many of the fights you listed, including Titan. Garuda is the major problematic fight for MNK however there are also ways to keep GL3 up for the majority of the fight anyway.. (With the use of Shoulder Tackle & PB rotation).


It also only takes 9 GCD's for MNK to hit GL3, so while you lose it - it is still very fast to get it back.

I understand that you feel that even with interruptions to GL3 MNK still far exceeds DRG's damage (to the point where they are not even comparable). Others on here do not feel that is the case and the burden of proof is on you to back up this assertion.

I would prove it in a heartbeat if my parser wasn't broken.. Anyone else getting these annoying auto-resets after 2-3 seconds of inactivity? (On BLM it is resetting after every cast)

If anyone knows the issue / solution to this then I would be quite happy to go ahead and prove my point with hard numbers.

Also for those BRD's on here thinking 200 dps is "normal" or "good" in coil, I just watched the BRD in my coil static hit 260 in T5 on a consistent basis.. We actually had 3 DRG's in the party tonight. Each were averaging around 220.

[Aegis]

And I posted a rebuttle to this that proves you can maintain GL3 on many of the fights you listed, including Titan. Garuda is the major problematic fight for MNK however there are also ways to keep GL3 up for the majority of the fight anyway.. (With the use of Shoulder Tackle & PB rotation).

I must admit I missed that, I just went back and read through it. I would dispute a few points.

Ifrit: Yeah you lose @ charges but they are pretty far between each other (every few mins). Aside from that he is a tank & spank, so for a good portion of the fight you have T4 GL. Every couple of mins in an eight minute fight is a fair proportion. Certainly enough to keep a DRG in the lead

Garuda: As I mentioned, probably the only fight where DRG excels.

Titan: You can hit/ws on the bombs to maintain GL. Jumps are fast enough to maintain GL. You lose if you get Gaol'd but that's 1 in 7 chances every minute or 2... I hadn't thought of hitting the bombs, to be honest. That's a nice tip. However, whether or not you can maintain GL through jumps depends where in your rotation you are when he jumps: Just comlpeted the third stance? Great. Just completed first? Boned.

WP: Why? Switch to FoE and tank it.. Problem solved. This only works if you are overgeared for the content. An AF-wearing monk can not reliably face-tank the Bavarois. If you are overgeared for the content, well this whole argument isn't really important. No-one's going to care what DD you are as long as you have a relic (unless you are a BLM who are currently whistling and trying not to be noticed by the nerf-bat)

AK: 1 in 3 chances that you get an orb on you.. Once again, pretty low chance. 1 in 3 is not low. You can expect three orbs in a fight unless you are, again, really overgeared for it, so you can expect to be targetted and lose GL3 at least once.

It also only takes 9 GCD's for MNK to hit GL3, so while you lose it - it is still very fast to get it back.

9 GCDs is a long time to be operating at a reduced DPS for hard-tuned content