DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

[Aegis]

Why does everyone assume I am demanding things that I don't even mention? I am simply saying that DRG damage needs to be buffed to be comparable to MNK.

And other people are arguing that the damage is comparable already. While MNK has a higher DPS ceiling it is rarely possible to achieve that ceiling in most fights. (You seem to think only Garuda causes MNK to lose GL3 regularly, I posted a few pages ago arguing that a large portion of endgame events cause MNK to lose GL3 regularly).

I understand that you feel that even with interruptions to GL3 MNK still far exceeds DRG's damage (to the point where they are not even comparable). Others on here do not feel that is the case and the burden of proof is on you to back up this assertion.

[AesirTyr]

It's actually 280 potency for Thunder 3..
The base damage for Thunder 3 goes upto 340 if you get a Thundercloud proc.
When that is the case, the total damage for Thunder 3 goes upto a staggering 620 potency? I am terrible at math..
...
With a Thundercloud proc, yes.
Without, then no it is not.

Well, you're right about being bad at math.

Thunder 3 does 60 initial potency upon hit, and then has 8 ticks at 35 potency each. 60 + (8 * 35) = 340 potency.

Thundercloud procs add their full damage over time to their initial damage, and then apply the DoT. So Thundercloud procs do:

(8 * 35) + 60 + (8 * 35) = 620 potency.

Well it is if you are speaking in raw potency, however Flare will only ever be used under Astral Fire- so the raw potency of Flare isn't very comparable at all.

With 1 stack of Astral Fire, fire-based attacks will do 40% more damage. With 2 stacks, 60%. With 3 stacks of Astral Fire, fire-based attacks will do 80% more damage. So a fully buffed Flare cast with 3 stacks of Astral Fire has 488 potency.

And as I said before, it has a 4 second cast time and costs all the BLM's MP.

Yes but you are missing my point. DoT's are pretty much the bread and butter of DRG's damage. If you don't maintain DoTs then you will do crap damage.. ...
The other classes however are less reliant on the damage from the actual DoT - and more reliant on the additional effects / procs that go with them.
MNK as mentioned earlier, is more focussed on lowering GCD so they can fit more skills in.
...
Basically what I have been saying this whole time here: The primary focus / only thing you have to really pay attention to on DRG is keeping all buffs and DoT's up. The rest is simply filler.

Again, the math says you're just wrong here. MNK gets a higher percentage of its damage from buffs and DoTs than DRG. MNK's buffs account for about 40% of its DPS. MNK has to re-apply its DoTs every 6 to 15 attacks (it varies depending on GCD and the DoT's duration). And MNK has to re-apply its buffs literally every 3-6 attacks. Many MNKs have to completely drop certain higher potency attacks from their rotation to make sure those buffs are always up.

And how does MNK lower its GCD? By getting its buffs up, and keeping them up. So the primary focus for MNK is getting your buffs/DoTs up, and keeping them up.

Yes, a MNK can drop DoTs from its rotation. But it's DPS is going to drop. And a MNK can drop buffs from its rotation, but its DPS is going to horrendous.

So your argument doesn't make any sense. You probably give more attention to keeping your DoTs/buffs up on DRG than the "filler" attacks. But that's not because most of your damage comes from keeping those DoTs/buffs up. It's because -- like every other class in the game -- getting those buffs and DoTs up and keeping them up is complicated.

You want to see some serious hair pulling? Start a thread in the MNK forums asking whether it's better to use Bootshine and True Strike. Better yet, ask a group of MNKs what skills they use after Perfect Balance. I don't think I've ever heard two MNKs that use the same skill rotation while Perfect Balance is up. Because it's so incredibly complicated that the community hasn't even arrived at one set answer.

The fact of the matter is that DRG's DoTs/buffs are no more important than other classes' DoTs/buffs. I honestly think you should play some end-game MNK, and see if you still think DRG's "bread and butter" are their DoTs and buffs.

So wait a sec.. The only reason you bring a DRG is so you can buff 1 other player's damage? Never knew my role as the only 2 handed, "heavy" DPS class in the game just happened to turn into a support role for an Archer...

I can only assume you're being intentionally dishonest here. The very next statement I provided a list of several reasons to include DRG other than buffing BRD damage. You apparently chose to ignore that list, and focus on one part of one statement. That's dishonest.

I never said that, I never implied that, and in fact it's the opposite of what I said. I can only assume you've given up on being constructive, and are trolling now. That's disappointing.

[Shiyo]

DRG was designed(stated by yoshi-P) to be easier to play than other classes. It's intended to be weaker because it's a class for lesser skilled players. What's weird, though is how much damage BLM does. They need to reduce BLM's damage if that is truely the reason for DRG doing less damage, because BLM is much easier than DRG. SMN as well, SMN is probably one of the least interesting DPS I've ever played in a video game.

[Sygmaelle]

But monk is super horrible aswell. The sound effects just horribly lack of punch and most of the animations are just terrible, so for those who like to play melee dps ? ...

Anyway Drag is fine. Just stack that crit rating.

[Hyrist]

I'm wondering what the point of all this is...

SE is buffing DRG.

DRG has never been a utility Job.

Preaching to chior when it comes to saying a job that's slated for a buff needs buffing.

What sort of utility are you requesting they add?

[Altena]

I'm wondering what the point of all this is...

SE is buffing DRG.

DRG has never been a utility Job.

Preaching to chior when it comes to saying a job that's slated for a buff needs buffing.

What sort of utility are you requesting they add?

Improved Jump animation is all that has been mentioned.
Aside from that there has been no mention of a flat buff for DRG - simply a blanket buff for melee (ie. MNK and DRG). This will just push MNK higher then it already is, and potentially make DRG comparable to ranged DPS, yet lack utility..

What I am saying is DRG needs to be comparable to MNK, and stronger then ranged in general.

I am not necersarilly requesting they add any utility - simply stating that they need one or the other:
Stronger damage then jobs that have more utility, or comparable damage with comparable utility.

You can't have a job (like BLM for example) that is stronger, more useful, and less risky to play.

[Hyrist]

I am not necersarilly requesting they add any utility - simply stating that they need one or the other:
Stronger damage then jobs that have more utility, or comparable damage with comparable utility.

You can't have a job (like BLM for example) that is stronger, more useful, and less risky to play.

Agreed, except in matters regarding MNK.

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is. You also highly underestimate the level of increase fixing our animation lag becomes. It means the difference if being able to use jump inside the timing of a Heavy Thrust and pull off a FT combo, and not being able to.

You've not answered the question as to WHAT utility you would like Dragoon to have in the case they add Utility to Dragoon. (They already have 2 stuns and a Piercing Buff, as well as more positional tools,[2 gap closer an an escape/hate dump.] As well as the most dependable slow in the game.)

Global Buffs to Melee does not mean Melee will receive buffs equally, only that all of them will be buffed.

Black Mage suffers from cast time, unlike Bard, who's being nerfed. Between the buff to melee, and the nerf to Bard, that should even things out a good fair bit.

But I do not believe the lack of a 'utility' especially in the event that most utility skills go generally unused, should be cause to make DRG unquestionably the best Melee DD, so we loop around back to my center question.

What utility would you like to add to Dragoon? I wouldn't mind if they added utility, but I'm at a loss of direction here. If you're making demands of it, you really should have a suggestion handy.

[Soukyuu]

What I'd really want them to fix is how server is doing the jumps. It's silly that elusive jump updates your position on end of the animation, and not in realtime. Jumping out of AoE is nearly impossible. Same for Jump: you jump, but your position stays the same despite you moving on the screen. As for the blanket melee buff, from what I saw, it's not a damage buff but some kind of buff to outweigh us having to run out of AoE all the time vs ranged jobs.

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is bad most monk player are.

Fixed. Out of 10 monks I meet, 8 will underperform. Sometimes, if I mess up my rotations, I also see a huge drop in dps. That said, Monk is balanced with them losing GL3 in mind. It's a high ceiling job where you have to adapt your rotation on-the-fly, vs. DRG's relatively static ones.

[Altena]

Agreed, except in matters regarding MNK.

Monk does better on paper but rarely in actuality due to how fragile their max DPS state is. You also highly underestimate the level of increase fixing our animation lag becomes. It means the difference if being able to use jump inside the timing of a Heavy Thrust and pull off a FT combo, and not being able to.

While the window to maintain optimal DPS for MNK is 10 seconds, the issue is the DPS potential for MNK is just so rediculously higher then DRG. I don't necessarily disagree that on a fast moving fight (such as Garuda), MNK does indeed take a hit - the issue is that currently it's really the only fight where MNKs have trouble being leagues ahead. All I am saying is the gap between potential DPS, for DRG and MNK is too large.

You've not answered the question as to WHAT utility you would like Dragoon to have in the case they add Utility to Dragoon. (They already have 2 stuns and a Piercing Buff, as well as more positional tools,[2 gap closer an an escape/hate dump.] As well as the most dependable slow in the game.)

Anything.

I am not going to do their dev work for them - I am simply stating that it needs adjusting.

The piercing buff only applies to themselves and BRDs. While it is technically utility, when their damage is compared to a job such as BRD who potentially has access to increasing BLM and SMN damage, helping the healers stay topped up with MP (as well as the BLM in this case, means less phase changes), regenerating TP for all melee after an AoE zerg, an AoE attack down (which is actually pretty huge for a tank), as well as the standard interrupts (actually the most instant in the game) and escape (Repelling shot).

On top of this, DRG's gap closers not only lock you for 2 seconds (yes they are adjusting this), their CD's are long. While they may have 3 different types, you can effectively only use one every 60 seconds (if you want to be sure you have one up at all times). Repelling shot, and Aetherial Manipulation as an example has a CD of 30 seconds.

So basically what you are saying is "they can buff themselves and BRDs, as well as having the utility that practically every other DPS already has".

Global Buffs to Melee does not mean Melee will receive buffs equally, only that all of them will be buffed.

However it also could potentially mean that there is a blanket buff done to mechanics that affects all, equally.

Black Mage suffers from cast time, unlike Bard, who's being nerfed. Between the buff to melee, and the nerf to Bard, that should even things out a good fair bit.

Yet BLM have infinite resources. Cast times also generally last the same length as a GCD for their staple attack (Fire), so you aren't really doing anything slower. Sure they can't move, but they are also natively stronger then BRD... ie. Balance.

But I do not believe the lack of a 'utility' especially in the event that most utility skills go generally unused, should be cause to make DRG unquestionably the best Melee DD, so we loop around back to my center question.

Whether the skills are used whenever their CD's are up or not - the fact that they have the option or rather the ability to do it is something that DRG does not.
The issue is that these other DPS classes can offer support when it's needed, and do more or as much damage.

I also never said "it should be king of the hill". I simply said it is underwhelming and needs a buff. Simply giving them an equal footing with MNK is enough - as you could argue the advantage of playing a quote on quote "more difficult" (lol) class such as MNK, is a little bit more utility or potential damage.

I am not saying they need to be behind the tank on the hate list. I am simply saying they need to be comparable. Currently they are not.

What utility would you like to add to Dragoon? I wouldn't mind if they added utility, but I'm at a loss of direction here. If you're making demands of it, you really should have a suggestion handy.

Once again, I don't necersarilly think they should get utility. They just need to have either better damage and less utility, or comparable in both. The easiest solution to balancing it is damage.
That is my suggestion.

Basically DRG is currently in a similar position to MNK in 1.0..
While MNK was the best option (at least strongest) in a couple of fights (namingly Chimera & Miser), DRG was a superior choice for practically anything else.
However of course BLM and BRD got favored simply because of how easy they were to play - in addition to how safe they were since they were ranged..

Basically the roles are reversed now.
BLM and BRD are still favored choices, MNK is now king of the hill, and DRG is somewhat lackluster.

[Hyrist]

You're going to have to start providing parses if you continue to talk in Absolutes, Athena. Again, it's not a matter of whether or not Monks are skilled or not, it's a matter of the fight mechanics outright prevent Monk from dealing optimum DPS and have a more punishing wind up than we do.


Because, I'm calling you out right now, you fail to take responsibility for the statements you make. This isn't even talking about doing the development work for them. We've got people of opposing opinions as to the actual dps outputs between your primary comparison marker here, which is monk. "I deal more damage on my monk and my monk is lesser geared." Is not substantial enough of a statment to make. You need to parse between your monk and Dragoon, or parse your Dragoon against a lesser geared monk and show us the data. You also have to display the use of this so-called Utility that's so important in action, otherwise, your statments fall flat, and amount to meaningless complaints on matters already slated to be addressed.

To put bluntly, you're blowing hot air with nothing to show for it, not even a recommendation. Just inane and blind demands with zero evidence or conceptual understanding of what's actually going and how to fix it. And it's infuriating, because I approached you thinking you had tackled this issue intellectually prepared, and what I get is the equivalent of a three year old holding a toy already going to the shop saying "mommy fix it and make it better!"

Considering you're a veteran member of this community, you should know better than to pull a Rokein. And sadly, even some of his complaints had better substance.

----

The most upsetting part about this is that all you've done is stated an opinion, continue to conjecture unsupported 'facts' and leave no room for the discussion to advance past the argument/conformation bias stage.

If you don't have ideas concerning Utility for Dragoon, which will be the only balance it needs, honestly, then let's start breaking it down as to what utilities can be provided. Cause right now, I'll tell you. Monk and Dragoon ARE comparable, they've been in constant argument about outputs since the start due to how fragile and volatile Monk's DPS is. So the winning argument here is utility and how to add more on top of having the game's most consistent slow.