DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

[Soukyuu]

ive had monks with me before equally geared as i said ove only lost to blm in aoe but on single target i out dps them not saying by much like maybe 3-9 dps but still

Those monks have to work harder then, I played with a DRG just now who had similar equip as you. We were testing who would manage to get hate off the (slightly undergeared, compared to us) tank and I was the one winning most of the time (10 vs 1).
So yeah.

(oh and before you scream "bad dps!", the tank knew we were trying to do it :P)

[Nihility]

groups can clear twintania with a dragoon in the group, how bad can it possibly be?

[Ericyu]

-Speed up jump animations/lower CD's on jumps.
-Give us back access to the archer skill tree (you can take back either PGL or MRD take your pick)
-Give us 1 or 2 more off GCD DD skills so were not stuck looking stupid after all of our jumps are on cd. Mercy stroke is nice but it has a 90 sec cd/ while only being able to do when the enemy health is 20%.

Then i'll be happy.

Edit:
Also i hate when folks point out the fact that "oh my FT hits 1k!! were doing just fine in DPS!". Its not like we're hitting 1K hits on the regular without any buffs. Yea you barely hit that 1K mark after having to go though all that trouble getting every dmg buff and debuff up. If B4B actually lasted longer and a lower cd (for goons) . This wouldn't be a problem.

[AesirTyr]

- They have poor spike damage (most of their damage comes from DoT).

This, to me, completely undermines everything else you've said. It's totally incorrect. Mathematically, logically, it's just wrong in every way.

DRG DoTs:
Chaos Thrust = 160 potency for hit + 200 DoT potency (over 30 seconds)
Phlebotomize = 170 potency for hit + 120 DoT potency (over 18 seconds)
Fracture (actually a WAR skill) = 100 potency for hit + 120 DoT potency (over 18 seconds)

That's a total potency of 870 (if the DoTs run their full duration and are done in combos). But that's not really accurate, since 430 of that potency is done as soon as you hit the mob. 440 potency comes from DoTs.

DRG True Thrust combo:
True Thrust = 150 potency
Vorpal Thrust = 200 potency
Full Thrust = 300 potency

DRG Heavy Thrust combo:
Heavy Thrust = 170
Ring of Thorns = 150 potency

DRG Impulse Drive combo:
Impulse Drive = 180 potency
Disembowel = 220 potency

That's 1270 potency right there. None of those are DoTs.

And that doesn't include Dragonfire Dive (250 potency), Jump (200 potency), Spineshatter Dive (170 potency), Doom Spike (160 potency), Leg Sweep (130 potency), or Feint (120 potency).

If you're getting most of your damage from DoTs, then you're not playing your class very well. In fact, I can't even figure out how you could possibly be getting most of your DPS from DoTs. It's just not possible unless you're playing DRG incredibly poorly.

[Altena]

yada yada

BLM's Fire has potency of 150.
Under Astral Fire 3, the damage is multiplied by about 1.5...
So a Fire 1 that does 300 damage now does about 550-600 non crit, no buffs.
An unbuffed full thrust does about 550. Vorpal does about 400, and True does about 300. (Gear depending of course).
So after that initial Fire cast, BLM is doing on average 300-400 more damage per 3x casts then a DRG. (This is also based on a BLM with worse gear then the DRG)
In addition to this, you have a 40% chance that you will proc a Firestarter which has a potency of 220 + the damage bonus from Astral Fire. (Which does about 800 non-crit, about 250-300 more damage then an unbuffed FT).


I didn't compare raw potency simply because I have NFI what the equation is for Astral Fire, I am simply eyeballing numbers. However please keep in mind these numbers are based off a near-full i90 DRG with 476 STR, vs a gimpy relic/AK BLM with only 402 INT.

If FT crits, unbuffed you will get around 750.... If Fire crits, you will get around 1k. If Fire 3 crits, you will be hitting for 1300. This is true Spike damage. Therfore as I said earlier - DRG's spike is low in comparison.

Chaos Thrust isn't really "spike" as the damage is over 30 seconds. As an example - trashy mobs in a dungeon generally don't last the full duration of CT.

Thorns is only worth it if used in combo, and there are more then 2 mobs. After using it once, you might as well be spamming doomspike anyway. While their AoE isn't terrible (and I never said it was), it certainly isn't the best either. Especially when resources are being considered. Turn 4 coil is a great example of this.

DoT's are actually DRG's highest potency combos. While you may not be able to spam them due to their nature - they have the highest potency for the amount of steps. You said it is wrong to be doing most of DRG's damage in DoT's, while I agree with that, I only agree with that due to their nature (being unable to spam them), however they are still the strongest skills you can do in the same amount of steps/GCD's.
Example:
180 + 220 + 360 = 760 (Chaos combo, 3-step)
vs.
150 + 200 + 300 = 650 (FT Combo, 3 step)

So simply comparing the 2, the highest potency you can achieve in 3-steps is due to a DoT.
In addition to this, Phleb has a potency of 290 and is not combo'd. The only comparison to this is a power surge > Jump, and you can do that even less then Phleb.
While the damage is immediate, the CD on a PS>Jump is 90 secs.

So sorry to say, but DoT's are actually DRG's strongest skills. While they may not be spammable like FT, and on a parser it is not their "primary source of damage" due to the nature of a DoT, and the sheer number of immediate damage skills, the potency is much higher per combo/step then a raw damage skill. Therefore DRG's true strength does indeed come from DoT. I am not saying "the majority of my damage comes from DoT". I am simply saying that "the strongest potency per step comes from a DoT, therefore they have better sustained damage then they have spike damage". Even when their sustained damage isn't that crash hot.

DRG was designed(stated by yoshi-P) to be easier to play than other classes. It's intended to be weaker because it's a class for lesser skilled players. What's weird, though is how much damage BLM does. They need to reduce BLM's damage if that is truely the reason for DRG doing less damage, because BLM is much easier than DRG. SMN as well, SMN is probably one of the least interesting DPS I've ever played in a video game.

I don't think DRG is "easier" then any DPS really.. I am not saying it's "the hardest" either though.
I just think that it is more penalizing if you do stuff up, as your DPS simply plummets.
MNK is actually a lot more simple then people make it out to be.. While people can argue with me on this one - simply using a flank only rotation pushes you ahead of practically any other DPS in the party. I barely ever play MNK, yet can get close to matching my DRG in DPS even though my DRG's gear is substantially better.

I don't agree that BLM should be nerfed, nor should SMN though. DRG just needs to be comparable.

[AesirTyr]

DoT's are actually DRG's highest potency combos. While you may not be able to spam them due to their nature - they have the highest potency for the amount of steps. You said it is wrong to be doing most of DRG's damage in DoT's, while I agree with that, I only agree with that due to their nature (being unable to spam them), however they are still the strongest skills you can do in the same amount of steps/GCD's.
...
So sorry to say, but DoT's are actually DRG's strongest skills. While they may not be spammable like FT, and on a parser it is not their "primary source of damage" due to the nature of a DoT, and the sheer number of immediate damage skills, the potency is much higher per combo/step then a raw damage skill. Therefore DRG's true strength does indeed come from DoT. I am not saying "the majority of my damage comes from DoT". I am simply saying that "the strongest potency per step comes from a DoT, therefore they have better sustained damage then they have spike damage". Even when their sustained damage isn't that crash hot.

Have you played any other classes? Because the same thing is true for literally every class in the game.

For example, MNK:

MNK DoTs:
Touch of Death = 270 total potency (over 30 seconds)
Demolish = 240 total potency (over 18 seconds)

Outside of those attacks, MNK's highest potency attack is 180.

BLM's DoTs:
Thunder 3 = 340 total potency (over 24 seconds)

That's even higher than Flare!

In fact, all DoTs have higher total potency than standard attacks. And there's a very simple reason for that. Using DoTs requires you to balance the effects over time vs. the benefit of an immediately strong attack. If the mob is going to die soon, then you want to skip the DoTs and use standard attacks. But if the mob is going to live for a long time, you want to use the DoTs. If DoTs were just as strong as standard attacks, there would be literally no benefit to ever using DoTs.

In other words, if the DoTs were as strong as standard attacks -- which is what you seem to be asking for -- then there would be no reason to ever use DoTs. SE should just take them out of the game. Because why would you use an attack that does 150 potency spread over 30 seconds, rather than an attack that does 200 potency immediately?

Moreover, as you admit, most of DRG's damage does not come from DoTs. Most of their damage comes from standard attacks. And DRG's combination of quick buffs and powerful attacks with longer cooldowns means that they're geared toward spike damage. The fact that their highest potency attacks are DoTs just means that their DoTs are useful; it does not mean that DRG is only a sustained damage class. It means they can continue to do sustained damage even when their "spike" damage is on cooldown.

As Hyrist said, I think DRG's have great utility right now. The fact that their piercing debuff helps BRD, too, is huge, especially considering that BRD is probably the only DPS class that's considered practically mandatory for the Coil right now.

But I would be curious how you think they can add utility to DRG. I'm generally in favor of making classes more useful. If you can suggest a way to make DRG more useful to a party, I'd love to hear it. But it sounds like you're only disappointed that other classes are parsing higher DPS than DRG on certain fights. If that's your complaint, then I'd respectfully suggest that you worry more about winning fights, and concentrate less on who's parsing highest.

[Soukyuu]

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.

Monk and Dragoon ARE comparable, they've been in constant argument about outputs since the start due to how fragile and volatile Monk's DPS is.

Again, no. See my previous post.

[Hyrist]

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.
Again, no. See my previous post.

I read the post, same applies to you. Show direct comparisons of comparably skilled Monk and Dragoon, during Titan, and resulting parse. I am not talking Potency comparisons. I'm talking raw DPS and damage totals here. Monk potentially suffers far greater from rotation interruption than Dragoon, and there are multiple cases in most fights in which this is a highly occurring problem, more so for monk who's more positionally dependent (which attributes to its higher skillcap.)

If you want to make substantiated claims, you gotta back it up. The onus is on the OP to provide evidence for the claims she makes. You're welcome to support her with the evidence if you wish. I want to see the numbers and incite others to do the same for the opposing arguments.

[AesirTyr]

People are looking at raw potency too much, not considering the skill/spell speed portion of the equation, if you ask me.

I agree that comparing raw potency between different jobs is not definitive. But I'm using raw potency to compare two different attacks by the same job. DRG DoTs vs. DRG non-DoTs. MNK DoTs vs. MNK non-DoTs. Potency should be a pretty good indication of relative damage output on one character, since the Skill/Spell Speed (and other factors) on the same character on the same job should be the same.

However, I agree with your larger point. It's difficult to get raw damage numbers from potency between different jobs, especially if you don't look at the conditions surrounding the use of that skill.

For example, the OP suggests that Dragonfire Dive is much worse than BLM's Flare. I think this is silly.

Dragonfire Dive has a potency of 250 to all mobs in the area. Dragonfire Dive looks awesome, and it is awesome.

Flare has a potency of 260 to all mobs in the area. Flare looks awesome, and it is awesome. But Flare has a 4 second cast time (depending on Spell Speed/Astral Ice). And Flare uses all of the BLM's MP.

10 more potency doesn't sound like much. The actual damage numbers can be larger, depending on the circumstances.

But then again, imagine if Dragonfire Dive required you to stand in one place for 4 seconds before it worked. And imagine if it used all of the DRG's TP. I think that would be much worse.

That's why simply comparing DPS output is not really helpful. The circumstances are different.

DRG is helpful to the rest of the party in ways other than simply putting out large DPS numbers.

2 good Stuns, an amazing Slow, a piercing debuff that also helps BRD, ranged attacks, ability to close distance to ranged targets quickly, jump attacks that are variable depending on where you want to end up, large HP pool, ability to move while attacking, etc.

I don't think it's enough to say that DRG isn't putting up the highest DPS numbers, so they need a buff (and it hasn't been shown that they're putting up sub-par DPS numbers). I think you need to recognize that they're helpful to the party in other ways. That's what "utility" means. DRG's utility is not just its DPS number.

[Altena]

Have you played any other classes? Because the same thing is true for literally every class in the game.

For example, MNK:

MNK DoTs:
Touch of Death = 270 total potency (over 30 seconds)
Demolish = 240 total potency (over 18 seconds)

Outside of those attacks, MNK's highest potency attack is 180.

That is because MNK's damage comes from stacked GL / low GCD - and not high potency. While they do use DoT's, and while they are the highest potency skills that MNK have, they aren't really the bread and butter of the class..

DRG on the other hand predominantly focuses on keeping buffs up, keeping DoTs up, and just standard filler. ie Their "optimal" damage is based around keeping those DoT's... On a MNK you can do just fine spamming a 123 rotation on the flank (as I proved earlier in my post).

BLM's DoTs:
Thunder 3 = 340 total potency (over 24 seconds)

It's actually 280 potency for Thunder 3..
The base damage for Thunder 3 goes upto 340 if you get a Thundercloud proc.
When that is the case, the total damage for Thunder 3 goes upto a staggering 620 potency? I am terrible at math..
of course that is offset depending on how quickly Thundercloud actually procs as you waste the rest of the current Thunder when you refresh it (kind of).

So basically the potency is anywhere from 375 (Thunder 3 base dmg + 1 tick) to 620 (if Thundercloud procs on the last tick)

That's even higher than Flare!

With a Thundercloud proc, yes.
Without, then no it is not. Well it is if you are speaking in raw potency, however Flare will only ever be used under Astral Fire- so the raw potency of Flare isn't very comparable at all.

In fact, all DoTs have higher total potency than standard attacks.

Yes but you are missing my point. DoT's are pretty much the bread and butter of DRG's damage. If you don't maintain DoTs then you will do crap damage.. Pretty simple really.
The other classes however are less reliant on the damage from the actual DoT - and more reliant on the additional effects / procs that go with them.
MNK as mentioned earlier, is more focussed on lowering GCD so they can fit more skills in. It also means you can squeeze an extra skill in before having to refresh your DoT.

And there's a very simple reason for that. Using DoTs requires you to balance the effects over time vs. the benefit of an immediately strong attack.

The reason is even more simple then that. It's so you cannot just sit there and spam the highest potency skill over and over.. Why would anyone ever use Full Thrust combo if Chaos Thrust potency was instant? That is the only real reason that the highest potency skills are DoT.

If the mob is going to die soon, then you want to skip the DoTs and use standard attacks. But if the mob is going to live for a long time, you want to use the DoTs. If DoTs were just as strong as standard attacks, there would be literally no benefit to ever using DoTs.

Basically standard stuff that a 2 year old already knows. If the mob is not going to survive long enough to last the full duration then the DoT is useless. However I think you are forgetting that we are talking about anything worth a damn here... For the most part things stay alive longer then 30 secs. When they don't - then that's when DRG relies on Full Thrust - which is garbage in comparison to what other classes have to offer. Hence why the original statement - their spike damage is crap.

In other words, if the DoTs were as strong as standard attacks -- which is what you seem to be asking for -- then there would be no reason to ever use DoTs. SE should just take them out of the game. Because why would you use an attack that does 150 potency spread over 30 seconds, rather than an attack that does 200 potency immediately?

Why does everyone assume I am demanding things that I don't even mention? I am simply saying that DRG damage needs to be buffed to be comparable to MNK. I don't really care how it's done.. It just needs to be done somehow. Not once did I say "buff xxxx skill because"... I simply said DRG dmg in general needs to be buffed...

Moreover, as you admit, most of DRG's damage does not come from DoTs. Most of their damage comes from standard attacks. And DRG's combination of quick buffs and powerful attacks with longer cooldowns means that they're geared toward spike damage. The fact that their highest potency attacks are DoTs just means that their DoTs are useful; it does not mean that DRG is only a sustained damage class. It means they can continue to do sustained damage even when their "spike" damage is on cooldown.

Their damage comes from maintaining DoT's and buffs, and filling in the gaps with off GCD stuff (which is practically on GCD anyway because of animation lock). So yes the primary focus to deal good damage on DRG is maintaining DOT... I never said that "you don't fill the gaps with filler", in fact I think I actually posted on multiple counts, my rotation - which happens to be practically the exact same rotation that everyone else does... I think you are arguing semantics here. Basically what I have been saying this whole time here: The primary focus / only thing you have to really pay attention to on DRG is keeping all buffs and DoT's up. The rest is simply filler.

As Hyrist said, I think DRG's have great utility right now. The fact that their piercing debuff helps BRD, too, is huge, especially considering that BRD is probably the only DPS class that's considered practically mandatory for the Coil right now.

So wait a sec.. The only reason you bring a DRG is so you can buff 1 other player's damage? Never knew my role as the only 2 handed, "heavy" DPS class in the game just happened to turn into a support role for an Archer... Also the statement the only DPS class that's considered mandatory is also incorrect. In fact, Turn 1 you don't even need a BRD... In addition to this, T2 and 4 you pretty much need a BLM if not for the AoE damage in T4 alone.. T5 you need at least 1 caster for LBing snakes..

But I would be curious how you think they can add utility to DRG. I'm generally in favor of making classes more useful. If you can suggest a way to make DRG more useful to a party, I'd love to hear it. But it sounds like you're only disappointed that other classes are parsing higher DPS than DRG on certain fights. If that's your complaint, then I'd respectfully suggest that you worry more about winning fights, and concentrate less on who's parsing highest.

I am not one to look at the parse for the most part and cry over it. In fact I don't really care who parses the highest in my coil group - and honestly I couldn't even tell you who the most consistent is. My point in this whole thread is balance. I like to play a job and know that I am pulling my own weight, and that people aren't getting disadvantaged by me choosing a particular class to min/max over another..

Unfortunately this is the case for DRG in its current state. If you can take something that works better - then why wouldn't you? Unforunately this is the case for practically every fight in the game in its current state.