FFXIV has lost it's magic

[Sunarie]

Wrong. Its not a challenge if I can do it in under a hour. No challenge. And just because you cant play more than a few hours a day doesn't mean that other people are locked into that. And even so I knew people in WoW and FFXI and other games that also had limited play time but they worked at the game because it was a challenge!

Time sinks aren't challenge. Getting mythology in this game isn't a challenge, it just takes time.. but it's certainly not difficult. Time itself doesn't automatically mean something is a challenge. A boss fight can be extremely challenging, and take less than an hour to down (when you do it correctly). I'm not saying challenging things don't take time, but just because it took longer to do something does not automatically mean it was difficult. People seem to confuse the two. I also don't think everything in a game should be time consuming or challenging (unless we're talking about appealing to a niche audience, which most games don't aim for).

I'm an adult, my first MMO was Shadowbane. I played a bit of Ultima Online, and Lineage as well. I know the grindy stuff that people seem to want, and I can harken back to it myself with a bunch of nostalgia. However, when I sit and think about why I enjoyed something, it often has very little to do with how much time it took to do it. Raiding (whether open world or instanced) takes a long time, but it's not an accomplishment because of that alone. It's an accomplishment when you finally dodge all the attacks, coordinate well enough, and down the boss. The time itself isn't really what's causing the feeling of accomplishment. I'm not actually locked into any time constraints. None at all. However, I recognize that with the MMO industry being as large as it is now, a good majority of the people probably don't have 5-6 hours to devote to an MMO just to make progress anymore, and I can accept that as an okay thing. I like more people in the industry, it's going to mean more innovations. I don't want to restrict it to a certain group.

Challenge is good, I welcome it. I have raided in any recent MMOs because I like the challenge of doing so. However, I am not going to confuse killing 1 million mobs to get an item for a quest with actual challenge. Just like spamming AK/WP isn't a challenge (and wouldn't be, even if you made mythology take a year to get), killing little things for hours on end is not a challenge.. because time does not equal challenge.

[Yurikitty]

Time sinks aren't challenge.

So getting to 50 in less than 2 days is a challenge? Saying that its a time sink therefore it is challenging doesn't make it so, you are correct about that. But being able to achieve something in a very, very, very short amount of time isn't a challenge either. Where is the challenge in being end game ready, such as it is, in less than 3 weeks? Even on WoW it takes a few days to ding 90, it used to take longer before WoW got nerf happy. Being Level 75 in 11 meant something. It meant you took the time to get there, it meant you worked for it. People still curse Maat to this day, it was a damn good challenge! Oh look I can get my AF in 15 minutes (5 min depending on the class)in ARR, in 11 it took a long time, it took dedication, putting on full AF made you grin ear to ear because you worked at it and you made it!

Challenge is good, I also welcome it, but not working for something = no challenge.

[Sunarie]

So getting to 50 in less than 2 days is a challenge? Saying that its a time sink therefore it is challenging doesn't make it so, you are correct about that. But being able to achieve something in a very, very, very short amount of time isn't a challenge either. Where is the challenge in being end game ready, such as it is, in less than 3 weeks? Even on WoW it takes a few days to ding 90, it used to take longer before WoW got nerf happy.

Where do I say it has to be black and white, or that FFXIV is challenging? I don't.. and no, I don't think getting to 50 in less than 2 days is a challenge. Nor do I think mindlessly killing mobs for 12 months straight to get to max level is a challenge (or fun). It really isn't either or, and time has nothing to do with it. As I keep saying. Short does not equal challenging, long doesn't equal challenging.. time does not equal challenge. That was all I was saying. I see a lot of people claiming that just because something doesn't take an arbitrary amount of time it means it's not difficult.

As someone who claims to be of the old-school, it's a shame that you don't understand one crucial thing about MMORPGs. They're not for everyone.

I would disagree entirely. I think most anyone designing a game wants it to be fun for as broad an audience as possible while still maintaining their vision for the gameplay. People want their games to sell, they want them to be successful. Old school gamers don't necessarily get to define a genre (or industry for that matter) that is constantly changing and gaining popularity.

I would apply your same mindset to yourself. In that if the way the MMORPG industry is going is not fun for you, and you don't find it enjoyable, then perhaps MMORPGs just aren't for you anymore (if we're going with your "they aren't for everyone" statement), or you should find one more to your taste (they're out there, but they aren't at all popular). It's a different animal than it originally was, and it will continue to change with time. Instead of just not playing a game that they don't find enjoyable, I find a lot of these "bring back the old grind-fests!" thread in any new MMO. When given options though, the large majority of people don't want that, it's always the same niche group.. and even they don't really seem to prefer it or you would see them grinding away at mobs instead of questing and such here. My FC did a whole week of that, just as a side note. Grouped up and killed things at least 5 levels higher than ourselves to level instead of doing fates or dungeons. It worked pretty well.

I hold Shadowbane in high regard, so high that I doubt any MMO ever will live up to it. I am not so high and mighty though, that I expect everyone to like the same thing I do, play the same way I do, and force a certain playstyle down the entire genre's throat when it's painfully obvious they don't want it. I also don't think my playstyle is superior, or more fitting of the genre as a whole. It's just how I have fun. Instead, if I feel like grinding away at some mobs, I will find an MMO or game that fits that playstyle..not try and change a AAA title into what I want. There are quite a few F2P games that have a pretty steep grind to them, and there are grind options available in game currently. People just choose not to use them most the time because it's not the quickest. That part isn't new to the industry. Everyone always wants the quickest way to level, be it a certain spawn the grants more exp per hour, or a dungeon that gives more/you can run faster.. that isn't anything new.

[Meimei]

So getting to 50 in less than 2 days is a challenge?

No, but neither is shouting for 2-3 hours to fill a group that disbands after a few chains out in Yhoator. You also died and lost all the exp you made, making it a completely wasted experience that accomplished absolutely nothing.

Nothing in FFXI was true "challenge." Just very primitive and poorly made time sinks.

Challenge is good, I also welcome it, but not working for something = no challenge.

I'm doing plenty of work myself, but I can't say why due to the retarded post limit.

The general understanding of MMOs has evolved. Extremely difficult content that only 1% of the population can clear due to lack of accessibility or other kinds of problems is pretty meaningless.

An MMO is about an interactive and cooperative/competitive community that bands together. Who cares if not everything in the game makes you rip your hair out.

[Doo]

No, but neither is shouting for 2-3 hours to fill a group that disbands after a few chains out in Yhoator. You also died and lost all the exp you made, making it a completely wasted experience that accomplished absolutely nothing.

Nothing in FFXI was true "challenge." Just very primitive and poorly made time sinks.

Apparently forming a good group is pretty challenging.

[erasure25]

An MMO is about an interactive and cooperative/competitive community that bands together. Who cares if not everything in the game makes you rip your hair out.

How is it cooperative and interactive if you can just run into the beastmen camp alone, and get their aetheryte and have virtually zero chance of dying? Beastmen camps should be guarded and take a group. Make it a duty finder if you must or add some sort of auto grouping feature, but this is my main complaint about the boring overworld. There's no challenge in exploring and unlocking new parts of the map. To me, this is a real reason why the game doesn't feel as epic. The overworld is just taking up space, but not really adding any value to the game. Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but certain things just puzzle me. Why have an overworld if there are no dangerous areas/mobs that require group coordination?

[Tupsi]

Time sinks aren't challenge.

This whole game's core is a time sink...lol.

[Welsper59]

snip

As someone who claims to be of the old-school, it's a shame that you don't understand one crucial thing about MMORPG's. They're not for everyone. The reason? It requires a certain mindset (and dare I say, devotion) to really get the full experience out of them. Once you get out of that mindset, you're no longer going to enjoy the games in the way you should. More often than not, this means doing things with friends. Mind you, this isn't exclusive to doing endgame content only. If you're rushing to the end without finding any means to enjoy the process, you're not playing as intended. If that's enough of a social interaction for some people, then that works just fine. But the moment you find it lacking, is the moment that you're no longer of the right mind for these games.

Now, I agree that the nostalgia bit is quite rose-tinted, but that's because it's how it should be. That sense of exploration can only happen so many times (typically once per game), but the mindset that you have when you played those games in the past was the right one. Most of us are all about the rush these days. You know what brings me back to the old rose-tinted sense of fun in FFXIV? Doing things with friends I've known for a long time. But wait! Is it really considered a false/vague truth (rose-tinted, nostalgia, etc) if I'm experiencing the same level of fun in a new game by doing that same activity? Furthermore, it's in something that people would consider to be nothing but a "time sink" (leveling, gathering (fishing), etc). Time sinks may not always represent the difficulty That might be something for folks to ponder.

Keep in mind, I'm not saying that people who are not in that mindset should not be playing. That's not even remotely what I'm claiming. I'm just saying that things may not be as bad as people make it out to be. If something is not enjoyable to you, maybe it's just... not for you. The time consuming aspect of something can actually be a challenge, just not one that people care for (including myself). You play MMORPG's for that sense of team work and accomplishment. The longer something takes, the better that sense of accomplishment feels. Seriously, if this applies to you in any way, think about times that you have to save up for something. Maybe you want to get a new car, but can't afford it for the next year or two of penny pinching. There's that arbitrary sense of sentiment attached to newly obtained things that take long to get. Think about how great it feels to obtain something you spent so long getting. These days, you really don't get that because it's so much faster to obtain practically everything.

People really shouldn't look so negatively on things that take long to get, challenging or not. Though something challenging is only that way once... when it's actually completed, that challenge is diminished, if not completely non-existent. It's a legit concern when it's something mandatory that takes weeks/months/years (i.e. impossible to get around to just continue playing), but there's rarely anything like that to be found these days.