Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

[ColdestHeaven]

I'm slightly noob in regard to MRD/WAR and tank classes in general, I only played them in dungeons from 15 to 38 or so...that being said, I noticed some in this thread mentioned the enmity issue a few posts ago. Are we considering the lack of Defiance in all this theorycrafting? If a PLD or another WAR use their tank stance (Shield oath/Defiance), while the MRD devoted to DPS doesn't, shouldn't the MRD get considerably less enmity? Of course the other tank needs to be on par or have higher gear - a DRG with relic is going to steal a lot of aggro in AK runs with i60 tanks, so I can't even imagine how much harder would be for a MRD to leave the aggro to an undergeared tank. Again, I'm not really expert so it's more of a question rather than a debate. I came in this thread looking for advice on making MRD/WAR a viable DPS for titan HM while another PLD is tanking.

[Phreak]

Threat issues

Unfortunately the threat modifiers on either tanking stance does not make up for the damage loss (20/25%) for using the stance.

A tank outside their tanking stance will actually generate more threat than a tank using their stance.

[OmegaSinX]

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, 5% from Blood for Blood and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Disembowel, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 7.5% from Blood for Blood.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.05 * 1.022 = 460.8 potency per GCD

DRG: 342.8 * 1.1 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.075 = 461.1 potency per GCD

No disrespect but as CaliBos Stated earlier, You didnt account for Blood for Blood for MRD in your equation and I know Straight shot is on GCD but the 20sec boost should not be ignored in your equation either. Also, theoretically this equation only works if Both classes are playing perferctly. Which is easier to do As MRD since: 1. MRD really have only 2 rotation to worry about, 2. you can macro buffs in between abilities easily, 3 dont have to worry about positions. and 4 dont have to worry about Jumps possibly taken up a CD.

But regardless, mathimatically you are right. But just because it works on paper, doesn't mean its always going to work like that. If that's the case, how do you explain BRDs out dpsing MNK and DRG when they have higher potency single target rotations, more attacks off gcd and things like Grease lighting ? They do because of Game Dynamics. Unless DRG and MNK are fighting a practice dummy, BRD will out dps them because of the games dynamics until bards are nerfed. No disrespect to MNK and DRG but numbers dont lie, every time im in a party with a mnk or brd or bard and drg, BRD is always above them unless the other significantly outgear them.

I will agree DRG has an avantage over MRD when it comes to gear with more dps stats tho. With that being said, i wouldnt be Shocked if they created a DPS JOB for the class because of the way their build. When that day comes I'm sure MRD will be a force to be reckoned with. We shall see.

[Gamemako]

TO be frank, you're being just as bad as he is with that kind of response.

I'm not going to entertain Kitru's incessant abusiveness. I came here for a video game, not to listen to someone append every sentence with a petty insult. If you cannot act civilly, then you will be expressly ignored.

[Vmage]

But regardless, mathimatically you are right

no disrespect but that post you're quoting was already edited with the proper values (mostly)

...and the part you cut out was talking about the innate stat difference dragoon gets over marauder.. something along the lines of 40 strength

basically, a dragoon could unequip all of their jewelry and still outdps a marauder

when they actually wear equivalent gear the comparison isn't even close :\

more to the point, this thread seems to be dedicated to 'dragoon vs. marauder' when there's other dps classes out there.. and most of them look a lot better on paper than dragoon does.

tldr - no marauder is not the best, or second best, or third best.. they *might* have a shot at claiming 6th best dps class out there (but that's assuming we're only talking about single target, as both scholar and white mage outdps a marauder in any aoe situation.. along with every other dd class, they're really only better than paladins and gladiators at that point)

[Eightbit]

Opportunity costs.

The big issue with that idea is melee dps have essentially the same opportunity costs as each other. You or maybe someone else mentioned being able to take a better hit, but intentionally taking damage is a horrid idea as it will hinder your party. There is a reason why bad dps and red circles are intimately related. Only one fight comes to mind where positioning is not viable for melee dps, and that is demon wall. So yeah enjoy that.

Second since we are moving towards hypothetical and away from mathematical theory, how about the issue of finding parties as a mrd dps. I know I'd laugh you out of any of my parties if you joined as any base class for end game content, much less doing so as a tank class.

I'll just touch on aggro issues as all your focus on high dps will make you an aggro beast. The party loves it when a dps pulls aggro from the real tanks.

[ZDamned]

...Both classes are playing perferctly. Which is easier to do As MRD since: 1. MRD really have only 2 rotation to worry about, 2. you can macro buffs in between abilities easily, 3 dont have to worry about positions. and 4 dont have to worry about Jumps possibly taken up a CD.

You seriously need to stop using potential failures in the Dragoon's playing ability as a basis for your arguments. I could just as easily say that because Marauder's 2 rotations are so easy to play that they will die to simple game mechanics due to a lack of player knowledge and skill so they will never do any damage at all and thus they won't be better than Dragoon. It follows the same logic, albeit totally exaggerated.

We are comparing the best possible potential for each Class/Job, and figuring out which one is better, and in every case Dragoon wins, while being the bottom tier of the Melee Damage Dealers.

On top of all that, Warrior is subject to the same Mechanics as Dragoon, you have to assume at the least the same up time of attacking for both, and technically, Dragoon wins in that fight as well, because of Spine Shatter Dive, and Dragon Fire Dive being effective gap closers, which is a mechanic that Marauder/Warrior completely lack as a Melee DPS. (Monk has one also)

Finally Jumps INCREASE Dragoon damage, and any competent Dragoon is using them to boost their rotational damage, not stressing out about how to use them. ALL of them are not GCD attacks, and at the very worst increase DPS, at the very best, close gaps while dealing good damage. Either way, they help, not hurt a Dragoon.

So please stop using "unskilled" as a basis for why a Class/Job can or can not perform well. if that were truly a case, then nobody would be even bringing monks to Coil, because "they are too hard to play right".

[Calib0s]

heh, well... The Marauder would actually likely out-DPS a dragoon with no jewelry, but the comparison to Dragoon is only being made because the classes play very similarly and have very close average attack potency.

Marauder definitely isn't the best DPS, that's a ridiculous statement to make. There is no fight where a skilled Marauder will do more DPS than a skilled damage dealer.

But they can come within 10-15% of a pure DPS class' overall damage in actual play and have huge burst potential while still being quite sturdy. There are certainly applications for that.

[OmegaSinX]

I'll just touch on aggro issues as all your focus on high dps will make you an aggro beast. The party loves it when a dps pulls aggro from the real tanks.

People keep forgetting MRD enimity is extremely gimp without Defiance. Matter fact, Go into a Level 50 Dungeon as a MRD or GLD and see how well you hold threat against othere jobs without your stance. I dont see MRD out dpsing BLMs (who are typically main tanks worst enemy when it comes to threat) any time soon. So unless they are spamming just BB Combo they should not be pulling threat off Main Tank. And Even Then it will be difficult for a MRD to do.

BLM, SMN and BRD can't just unleash without any concerns of threat, if they did, it will prolly get the whole party wiped. At the end of the day, Just like any othere class they will be limited of maximizing their DPS if the have to slow down because of threat.

[OmegaSinX]

Come on guys, some of you are taking this a lil too seriously, this is just theory. No one Said "MRD is top DPS, bow down to the King" lol. MRD have proved they are capable of great DPS, im just theory crafting how good they can be with best gear in game compared to other melee dps.