Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

[ZDamned]

Quote : Yoshida: in development environment devs are really strong with marauder


I wonder why he choose to say Marauder and not Warrior...maybe im reading to much into this.

He also said in the same content, that we need to zoom out the camera... lol

[Vmage]

Your also not factoring in Chaos Thrust after Disembowel, which is the highest Potency ability Dragoon has, and it is always going to be boosted by 20% when it lands, so it's a 432 Potency attack by the time it's about to be refreshed.

to be fair, chaos thrust is the highest potency attack in the game outside of limit breaks

the only single hit that does more damage is flare, and that's only because 3 stacks of astral fire add way more damage than heavy thrust + disembowel

i do agree though his 'theorycrafting' kindof ignored the fact that both the debuff application combo (impulse>disembowel>chaos) and the stand 1-2-3 combo (true>vorpal>full) are both higher average potency than the marauder equivalents of SE and BB combos

as an aside though, those 10% debuffs are effectively 11.111111111111111% damage buffs, lowering a mob's resist from 100 to 90 for that specific damage type (for you bards out there, a battle voiced foe requiem is a bigger damage buff than raging strikes for your mages)

[SwordCoheir]

I've been running over potency numbers, non-gcd attacks, buffs and what-not for DRG and MRD and I have to say it's really a very tough call. In some aspects MRD has an edge and others DRG has the edge, then when considering the mechanics for something challenging such as titan/coil it could play for or against either job, but I'll try and summarize it.

It seems like MRD has the advantage in three distinct aspects, one they don't have to worry about positional alignment, can maintain more buffs more consistently throughout the fight, and they don't need to defer from their main DPS rotation to maintain their buffs outside of a single Straight Shot every 20 seconds, however MRD lacks non-GCD moves outside of Brutal Swing, and if tanking loses some of it's DPS potential because they wouldn't be using Blood for Blood and/or swapping Cross Class abilities for defensive ones.

DRG has the advantage of 4 low-high cooldown non-GCD moves with much better potency than Brutal Swing and pretty much nothing else over MRD, this in itself is a major boon to DRG because it allows them to have extra attacks for good/decent damage with fair consistency and will probably usurp any advantages MRD has over the DRG in the long run (It's hard to judge how much advantage 40 more seconds of 20/50% boosts will play out on MRD without doing lots of calculations). However there is a catch 22 and that main catch is three of the four moves bind you in place during their long animations, if your not careful with your timing it can get you killed so having to hold back for timing's sake will reduce the overall effectiveness on this boon, but none the less will be a distinct advantage for DRG.

In the end this kind of falls back to the DRG vs MNK scenario, there are gonna be times one is gonna be able too outshine the other just based on the mechanics of the fight and nothing else, and I feel that's more than likely going to be the same case comparing these two.

[Kitru]

I wonder why he choose to say Marauder and not Warrior...maybe im reading to much into this.

He also went back and said that they got that wrong, so it's not really your best piece of evidence.

If you want some straight up math, here goes.

The highest damage MAR rotation is BB>SE>BB>SE>Frac, or 2780 (630 + 610 + 630 + 610 + 300) potency over 13 GCDs, which is 213.85 potency per GCD. The only additional potency you're gonna get is from auto-attacks, which is 83.33, and Brutal Swing, which is 50 potency every 30 seconds for 4.17 potency per GCD. Totaled up, that gives you 301.35 potency per GCD on average (218.02 from special attacks; 83.33 from auto-attacks; this will be important later on).

The high damage DRG rotation is insanely long thanks to the CDs on a lot of unequal durations, so I'm not going to list it out and instead use straight up math: HS is 1 GCD out of every 8, CT is 3 GCDs out of every 12, Phleb is 1 GCD out of every 8, Frac is 1 out of every 8, and the rest is made up of Full Thrust. All of this adds up to 216.67 potency per GCD (1/8 * 170 + 3/12 * (760 / 3) + 1/8 * 290 + 1/8 * 220 + 9/24 * (650 / 3)). DRG also gets, off-GCD, Leg Sweep for 130 potency every 20 seconds for 16.25 potency per GCD, Jump for 200 (w/ 50% extra from Power Surge on half) every 40 seconds for 15.625 potency per GCD, and Spineshatter Dive for 170 every 90 seconds for 4.72 potency per GCD. The auto-crit from Life Surge is basically a free crit on Full Thrust, or 150 extra, every minute for 6.25 potency per GCD. Tack on the 83.33 for auto-attack and you get 342.8 potency per GCD (216.67 + 83.33 + 16.25 + 15.625 + 4.72 + 6.25).

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, 5% from Blood for Blood and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Disembowel, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 7.5% from Blood for Blood.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.05 * 1.022 = 460.8 potency per GCD

DRG: 342.8 * 1.1 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.075 = 461.1 potency per GCD

Furthermore, compound this with the fact that DRG gets the STR traits, MAR doesn't get the job stat bonuses, and that the MAR gear is severely lacking on secondary DPS stats and DRG pulls away pretty quickly.

So, yeah. You wanted full on theorycrafting and I gave it to you: MAR isn't going to do more damage than a DRG and, at best, will likely get upwards of 85% of a DRG/LNC's.

[TekkaTakeda]

How are you able to do this as WAR ? Allagan Axe ? Str Potion ? Food ? What Mob was this on ?

Makes me even more excited to see our full potential.

+1, i70 armor, Hero's belt, mostly i70 DPS accessories.

As mentioned before, we're always going to be calculating off of Maim + SE situations ha. Honestly I do BB>SE>BB>SE>BB>SE>etc to keep my damage as high as possible during encounters. Popping Unchained + Berserk + Inner Release on initial pull basically guarantees that I will have aggro for the rest of the fight. Other than surviving from that point on, the only other thing I can do is contribute to DPS, so I do. I only use STR potions under these circumstances:

1. Berserk is active
2. I remember to use them

I should definitely macro the pot into my Berserk ability but eh, I would only do this for content where the DPS is absolutely required since I would have to craft all of them.

[TekkaTakeda]

My stats in a party are actually really low compared to most others:

407 STR
+30 DET from gear

Seeing as I get 25 STR if I went full i90 armor and ~25 more if I went full DPS Accs, I should see a 20% increase in DPS since I would also gain a decent amount of DET and CRIT.

I don't think the argument should be whether MRD or even WAR is better DPS than DRG/MNK or whoever else. I don't even know what the argument should be, really.

All I know is that on Titan (farm this every day) I consistently am able to compete with +1 i70+ DPSs who are T4+ experienced. Compete means within 15%. Under ideal situations, yes, you will be beaten every time. However, being able to stand in mechanics sometimes really helps when others have to move and cause disconnects. I make sure to tell my healers to not heal me during things like Titan or if I'm feeding slimes in T1. Through Bloodbath and using Storms Path (hate all you want) I get to DPS through mechanics that don't instantly kill people.

[TekkaTakeda]

That's why my DPS is generally higher - Because I have ~99% connect time due to my ability to keep myself up. Communicate with your healers if you're trying to make this happen whether you're MRD or WAR. You can make it work but don't think that you are always the best option. I find more often than not, I end up popping Defiance>Provo>BB to pick up after a tank goes down and it has served me and my group(s) very well.

This is just my experience and should in no way be applicable to every other situation.

Sorry for the novel. Hope it helps anybody out.

[Calib0s]

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.022 = 438.8 potency per GCD

It looks like you left out Blood for Blood in the Marauder Calculations, which would be an additional 5% overall (20/80 * .2). Thus the average potency per GCD should be:

(218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.022 * 1.05 = 460.78

Dragoon still has higher base strength, access to more secondary DPS stats on their armor, and doesn't have to worry about being threat capped, but potency per GCD looks to be nearly identical.

[Stonie]

i could see them adding like a beserker job to the class. first ability would be a buff like defiance that lowers HP a bit and greatly reduces enimity while raises ones damage. you would still gain wrath but instead of having a self heal you would get a strong move that puts some kind of debuff on the mob. there would be a steel cyclone like move that causes either blind or stun. instead of unchained(which i love as WAR with berserk main and IR all in one) beserker should get a move that gives all dps in a certain range a damage boost.

[Kitru]

It looks like you left out Blood for Blood in the Marauder Calculations

Not entirely sure how I missed that, but yeah, you're right. MRD with all of those CDs simply matches DRG on potency per GCD and DRG is going to get more out of each point of potency thanks to higher STR and better secondary stats.