DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

[Leon_Stormrage]

BRD is hit or miss, some of their damage (like BLM) does rely on chance. However fight depending - BRD can easily top a DRG if they don't have to worry about songs.

This is not true at all, a BRD cannot top a good dragon, NEVER! With the same equipment one dragon should be doing at least 60 - 70 more dps than a Bard (this is the Bard didn't play a song for much time)
Are some fights that we can have more dps due to the mobility but this do not apply for Coil.

[Altena]

Pretty sure most if not everyone disagreeing with you are just people refuting your over exageration on how weak/strong drg is, which you are.

This post is about the combined balance of DPS + Utility.
The gap between flat DPS may not be absolutely between a BRD and DRG, however the part that makes it unbalanced is BRD's large arsenal of utility. They are guarenteed a spot in any party simply because of their songs. They are also preferred DPS as they don't have to put themselves in high risk situations as often as a melee DPS.
The gap between DRG and MNK however is huge. This is not an exageration. The numbers in my previous post alone show this. If I were to do the true flank rotation (this isn't even optimal), my undergeared MNK would be parsing similar numbers to my near-full i90 DRG.

Just because another class does what they do well doesn't make them unbalanced,

Wait ... what?

Read that sentence again... Here let me re-word it for you to make it clearer to what this sounds like:
"Just because another DPS class is a better DPS then another, doesn't make them unbalanced."

Sorry but yes, it does. Why would anyone choose sub-optimal over optimal? Not only this, all current DPS offer more utility then DRG.

like I said before with black mage their damage & utility has always been that way even since FFXI this is just what they are high damage glass cannons with plenty of utility to compensate being so fragile(which I might add dragoons are not), in fact they are far more balanced in 2.0 than any other version(XI, XIV 1.0) as you no longer see people just stacking blms for almost literally everything.

To begin with, FFXIV isn't FFXI.
In addition to this, how does "BLM has always been strong, so it should stay strong." make any sense?
Their crowd control is absolutely superior to all other DPS classes. That alone is a reason to bring one along.
On top of this they have the highest AoE damage, the 2nd highest single target damage, and they do all of this out of harm's way - at range.

The balance between weaker physical defense, is quite simply that they don't have to be close to anything that hits them for physical damage.
If they do? Then they have Manawall (which is far superior to DRG's Keen Flurry equivalent), but Manawall isn't enough? Then BLM has Manaward which is effectively 30% HP boost when they are taking magic damage. The closest equivalent to that is Foresight - which on my PLD (which has much higher defense then DRG) equals to about a 7% damage taken reduction. On DRG? This equates to diddly squat.

Dragoon needs tweaks sure, but no they aren't weak, when I see one at the bottom of the dps parse in any given fight then maybe, just maybe I'll believe that.

You need to parse more, or play with DRG's that are actually equally geared and not overgeared in comparison.

But from where I see it, bard is usually the lowest out of any given geared party, but their mobility/songs make up for that. The only class that has an extreme balance skew is warrior at this moment, dragoon needs tweaks but it's not even close to the point where warrior currently is where you absolutely just can't take one in and end up struggling if you do when compared to paladin, in coil anyway.

Not sure where you got those numbers from but even facerolling trashy bosses in Praetorium - any scrub BRD that knows how to use their skills pushes higher then DRGs of equal gear.

As for Warrior, it works as an off-tank, while I agree doesn't really work as a MT most of the time. It is in a weird place at the moment - and is getting a buff to compensate for it. However DRG is in the same boat. It has lackluster DPS and next to no utility (aside from buffing BRD damage.. lol).

[Altena]

This is not true at all, a BRD cannot top a good dragon, NEVER! With the same equipment one dragon should be doing at least 60 - 70 more dps than a Bard (this is the Bard didn't play a song for much time)
Are some fights that we can have more dps due to the mobility but this do not apply for Coil.

70 DPS difference? You are serious right now? You play FFXIV right?

A DRG of equal gear to a BRD cannot push 70 DPS higher. lol.

[ChaozK]

Pretty sure most if not everyone disagreeing with you are just people refuting your over exageration on how weak/strong drg is, which you are. Just because another class does what they do well doesn't make them unbalanced, like I said before with black mage their damage & utility has always been that way even since FFXI this is just what they are high damage glass cannons with plenty of utility to compensate being so fragile(which I might add dragoons are not), in fact they are far more balanced in 2.0 than any other version(XI, XIV 1.0) as you no longer see people just stacking blms for almost literally everything.

That glass cannon argument is not valid. BLMs have the highest magical defense of all dps while dragoons have the lowest. Now what happens more often, a dps tanking for physical damage or a dps eating an AOE for magical damage? Not even considering that BLMs aren't even in range to get hit by physical damage.

Not going into the argument wether dragoons are weak or not but just wanted to point that out, BLMs are not more of a glass cannon than any other dps. Its just trade offs:

BLM/SMN: high mag def / low phy def
MNK/BRD: med mag def / med phy def
DRG: low mag def / high phy def

[Constance]

I think the issue is about 4 feet behind the keyboard.

Dragoons would be a great class if it didn't attract the sour cream of the budwig cream that are dps'ers. I remember seeing a screenshot of a group of 8, where 3 members were dead in the first minute.

Guess which class were all 3 of those players?

TLDR : Less stupid people playing dragoons = better dragoons!

[Katiyana]

Can Dragoons complete the content? Yes? Okay then, that should be all that freaking matters -_-

[Leon_Stormrage]

70 DPS difference? You are serious right now? You play FFXIV right?

A DRG of equal gear to a BRD cannot push 70 DPS higher. lol.

Emmm yes they can the dragon on my coil group is doing about 260 dps and I am doing 200 I don't know if this are good numbers for me but I compared it with other bards on my FC and all we are doing around the same 200 - 210 so the answer is yes. The dragoon can and MUST be doing more damage than a BRD if not maybe is wrong at one point of his rotation.

[Terius]

DRG on my server has his Allagan Spear.

Can't be too shabby.

[Hanemakikaze]

That glass cannon argument is not valid. BLMs have the highest magical defense of all dps while dragoons have the lowest. Now what happens more often, a dps tanking for physical damage or a dps eating an AOE for magical damage? Not even considering that BLMs aren't even in range to get hit by physical damage.

Not going into the argument wether dragoons are weak or not but just wanted to point that out, BLMs are not more of a glass cannon than any other dps. Its just trade offs:

BLM/SMN: high mag def / low phy def
MNK/BRD: med mag def / med phy def
DRG: low mag def / high phy def

You make a valid point, but Black Mage wear cloth armor and have a smaller health pool, not sure what the ADS beam is but I've seen the mages in my group get one shot by that where as me on monk or dragoon can at the very least survive it. To me, that is very glass cannon, whether they are able to avoid the damage or not doesn't change the fact that if they do get hit, they're dead.

rada rada rada

For starters, whether it's FFXI or FFXIV doesn't matter, SE has established the black mages role in parties and it's pretty much set in stone. Everything you just said about them is who they are and how it's always been, that's not going to change and I don't think it should. Sure, in a perfect world a mage doesn't get hit but that world doesn't exist. People screw up, if a black mage pulls agro, or gets agro from adds there's a 90% chance they are going to die in coil, hell, if they get hit by a stray beam from one of the ads bosses they are dead.

My point is though, a squishy will always be a squishy no self buffs are going to stop that. As for the whole class doing their role well doesn't make them unbalanced, what you think it sounds like I'm saying is completely off. When I see that the majority of the classes in this game do their role well, I think that's absolutely balanced. When a class can't perform above average no matter what the circomstances, be it player skill, gear, etc. THAT is what I consider unbalanced, and as I stated before only warrior fits the bill. Dragoon is weaker than Monk & Black Mage, but put is can indeed pull its weight in a party and perform above average. And like I said, it does need tweaks but I do not find them as weak and you're making them out to be.

[Altena]

Emmm yes they can the dragon on my coil group is doing about 260 dps and I am doing 200 I don't know if this are good numbers for me but I compared it with other bards on my FC and all we are doing around the same 200 - 210 so the answer is yes. The dragoon can and MUST be doing more damage than a BRD if not maybe is wrong at one point of his rotation.

As a BRD, 200 DPS is fairly low, even for pre-i90 gear to be truthfully honest.