Why no speculation on Jobs for crafting classes?

[Amineri]

Your idea in general I like but common things already exist in the game as training manuals, like Cobbling & Sheeting. The Job system (as described) is for party play in battle, so it's not unreasonable to think that it would be for group play as crafting, also - to make larger things, buildings, ships, mog houses, giant cakes(?), etc. Those things could use specialized skill sets that draw on multiple weavers or blacksmiths doing different tasks.

Well, anyway, that's what I think. You're talking about some things that are already adapted into training manuals.

Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

[Shai]

Well, the job system for combat is being designed to enhance party play. Since there is no party play for crafting (as of yet), it doesn't seem in order. However, I would happily (gleefully, even) change my stance if party-play for crafting and gathering were introduced, in which case jobs to take on specific roles in party crafting / gathering could be a fantastic addition!

Well they've said it's going to be introduced even after Yoshida took over.
That's what I'm talking about personally.

That a Job system overlay would work nicely hand-in-hand with large group-crafting projects. Assuming these projects are actually as big as I think and not something quick and simple. I guess time will tell. I think it's a good idea.

[SuzakuCMX]

I 100% agree. Hence my solution provides AT LEAST 10 times the pain!

Ah, I love sarcasm. <3

Seriously, I agree that crafting is a fairly painful grind. But I think the solution to that is to make the crafting experience more fun, rather than simply allowing people to max out all craft classes in short order.

Allowing specialization of crafting jobs does a couple of things:
1) Allows a player with less time to at least PARTICIPATE in the crafting economy. By going "depth-first", and focussing upon one specialization, such a player can still achieve mastery.
2) Prevents players from too quickly mastering ALL crafts. I saw that happen in Fallen Earth, and it really wrecked the economy. Once all players can make all items, the drive to exchange goods and items really falls off.

Making crafting more enjoyable should be a separate task, imho. Specifically, after Matsui-san finishes (enough) with the battle system changes to have some free time, I'd like to see the battle team turn its collective eye to improving the crafting / gathering play experience. You can see my appeal here : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post152005

They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

[Amineri]

They probably have different teams for battle than for crafting/gathering, as they work verrrrryyy differently, but they do have some commonground (such as with some of the NM drops -- if the drop is too common and it is a craftable item, it pretty much makes it worthless to craft that item at all).

As for the "DoH Jobs," I think they should wait until the player companies start because it seems like specialized jobs like painting (ITHASTOBEWEAVERBECAUSECANVAS) pictures, cobbling houses (maybe a miner? Not sure), building ships (Weavers, Carpenters, Blacksmiths, Armorers), etc. work mostly as part of a larger whole -- just making a sail doesn't really do anything if there's no ship, and you can't really build a ship without sails, nails, or steel reinforcement (or cannons etc).

Regardless I don't think a job specialized for hat crafting would work very well unless they drastically improved SP rates for crafting and also added a ton of variety to crafted items (like 5 different models per hat type -- yay sliders previewed in the "Making of Eorzea!")

And....I still have my fingers triple crossed (it's one after double...odds are trustworthy, right?) for a Chemist battle job that is learned from a DoH class...

Agree 200% that the battle system is different from the craft / gather system, and that they have different teams working on them. However, there are fewer good previous examples of fun and engaging crafting / gathering systems to build from.

My suggestion is to have Matsui-san and some of the battle system team spend part of their time working WITH the craft / gather system team(s) to inject ideas into how to improve craft / gather gameplay.

It desperately needs something more than the same solo mini-game from rank 1 to 50, identical for all DoH classes. If the craft / gather mechanics became a little more "combat-like", I think that would be good, as long as they are enjoyable.

WARNING! MATH BELOW. THOSE ALLERGIC SHOULD SKIP TO END

As to specializing the crafting classes, the math works out. SP/XP curves are generally at least quadratic -- in FFXIV they seem to be somewhere around a 3rd or 4th degree polynomial. This means that the majority of the total SP lies at the end. E.g. it takes as much SP to go from rank 41 to 50 as it did to go from 1 to 41. I expect that this will stay the same. So, what really matters is the branching factor.

We have 8 crafts currently. Suppose each branches by 3 at rank 51, branches again by 3 at rank 71, and again by 3 at rank 91. This means that each original craft would have 27 specialty branches by rank 99. Since the majority of the SP required is from 91 to 99, this means that it would take on the order of 27 times as long to max out all 27 specialties compared to a single linear craft.

THOSE ALLERGIC TO MATH CAN JUST READ THE PART BELOW

If a single specialty in a single craft were reduced to 2 months to max, then to max all 27 would take 54 months ... which is 4.5 years. To max out all 8 crafts would take a staggering 36 years.

So, a single maxed out specialty in 2 months, yet effectively impossible to max out all crafts.

[Dragon]

I disagree.

Shipwright (boats). Engineer (machina). Architect (buildings).

That's making them more generalized than specialized.

[Sorel]

I disagree.

Shipwright (boats). Engineer (machina). Architect (buildings).

That's making them more generalized than specialized.

I guess it depends on your point of view.

Carpenters deal with anything made of wood. That's pretty darn general. Shipwrights use wood to build ships. So they need to have some skill as a Carpenter.

But if you ask a Shipwright Job to make a bundle of arrows, he may be able to pull it off, but it may take him twice as long using up twice the amount of materials ... and it certainly won't be HQ.

The way I see it (i.e. my opinion), Crafting Training like Fletchery, Bonecarving, and Nailcasting are all designed to help the crafter make physically small things. Things that are no larger than a person. These are things that a solo crafter can handle.

Crafting Jobs should be designed to help the crafter craft BIG things. Things larger than a person. And things that require more than one crafter to make. Boats, buildings, airships, roads, tunnels, seige engines, etc, could all have Jobs that help construct them.

[Dragon]

I guess it depends on your point of view.

Carpenters deal with anything made of wood. That's pretty darn general. Shipwrights use wood to build ships. So they need to have some skill as a Carpenter.

But if you ask a Shipwright Job to make a bundle of arrows, he may be able to pull it off, but it may take him twice as long using up twice the amount of materials ... and it certainly won't be HQ.

The way I see it (i.e. my opinion), Crafting Training like Fletchery, Bonecarving, and Nailcasting are all designed to help the crafter make physically small things. Things that are no larger than a person. These are things that a solo crafter can handle.

Crafting Jobs should be designed to help the crafter craft BIG things. Things larger than a person. And things that require more than one crafter to make. Boats, buildings, airships, roads, tunnels, seige engines, etc, could all have Jobs that help construct them.

Have you ever been to a doctor?

See you have your general doctor that assesses how you're doing, then you have your specialized doctors that tell you the specifics (there's a doctor position for almost every single organ inside the human body, the most specialized such as a heart doctor or a head doctor, they're specialized because they are doctors of something specific, that they don't work any other part; same thing here).

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments of more crafting classes as I am about your terminology.

[Sorel]

Have you ever been to a doctor?

See you have your general doctor that assesses how you're doing, then you have your specialized doctors that tell you the specifics (there's a doctor position for almost every single organ inside the human body, the most specialized such as a heart doctor or a head doctor, they're specialized because they are doctors of something specific, that they don't work any other part; same thing here).

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiments of more crafting classes as I am about your terminology.

Except doctors are all trained in the basics of their craft. Every doctor had to disect a dead body. Every doctor had to learn how to deliver a baby, etc. They may have specialized afterwards, but they are still capable of performing their basic duties.

[Shizuo]

Because the new jobs are meant to add roles for partying to existing classes. I don't think people craft in parties so it Probly will never happen although a group crafting one beastly item would be cool.

This could be implemented as a guild crafting add-on in order to enable guilds to create ships/air-ships for the guild. Then these ships could be used to access higher level dungeons/islands.