Issues with Coil: Statics v. The Rest of Us

[GilbertLapine]

The Issue:

Coil has become extremely inaccessible to players with smaller/newer FCs. Those players already farming coil on a weekly basis have are mostly members of static parties, and since they can clear the instance once per week, once a player is claimed in a static they leave the population of potential party members for anyone else. This has lead the pool of potential party members for those affiliate with still budding FCs to be laughably low, and has created a relatively static population of "haves" and "have-nots" when it comes to allagan drops.

The implication of the current system is that many players are now in the difficult position of having to either abandoning their beloved friends and communities in the name of accessing end-game content, or having to wait weeks and even months for their friends to catch up (esp. due to myth cap). This doesn't seem like a wise, or fair, design choice for a game intended to be a) social, and b) a game. I still don't understand the purpose behind this (and, to a lesser extend, other non-DF party-oriented instances like Chimera and Hydra), but it seems there must be something better than what we have now.

Two possible solutions (not mutually exclusive):

- Enable DF functionality for Coil, preferrably with some kind of gear check
- Functionality for players to run Coil unlimited number of times per week, with loot lockouts after first attempt (and ideally some other, smaller reward like a modest gil drop, etc.)

Please post your thoughts here, with any feedback on the issue or my comments, or your own take on and experiences with the situation.

Discuss!

I've been lurking on these forums, for a very long time, but this thread has brought out the most face palm ever, this guy here, he gets it.

If there was a "loot lockout" I would force my FC to level a second character, gear them out, then run 7 alts and 1 main for coil, and do this 8x a week, and be geared for every class for everyone on their main in just a few weeks (depending on drops). this would instantly break the game, not to mention the fact that it would require a ridiculous amount of time, but, that doesn't matter when progress is at stake. for a top end FC, they would do this, guaranteed.

Facepalm indeed! I get the impression you don't know what a loot lockout is all about. I didn't at any time say loot lockout by class! The whole point is that you wouldn't be able to roll again on anything, regardless of what job you are on or were on when you get a drop. You get one chance to roll on loot, which is for the stuff that drops on your first weekly run. After that first win, you're done for the week. You would only be able to run it for fun and tomestones, but you are an automatic pass thereafter once the win is flagged for that week. Other games have implemented similar systems with very little effort or issue.

Even if you took out the lock outs but kept a lock on gear... how many people do you expect are going to help others

I won't and many others because plain and simple doing it once is stress enough especially when people are still progressing

pointless thread is pointless

I'm sorry to hear that you don't enjoy helping others. That's one of my favorite parts of the game: being social, meeting new people, and helping those in need. Nothing burns me more than seeing selfishness, apathy, elitism, and meanness in general.

If coil were a repeatable instance with loot lockout, I'd run it as often as I could 1) because I enjoy it and it would be good practice (I've actually really enjoyed T1-4, I guess a lot of people haven't...?), and 2) because I'd want to help as many struggling players as I could to enjoy the game as much as they can.

It's funny that we're all playing a game where we're supposedly the selfless heroes, the "warriors of light," and yet so many of us seem to want to play the villain. Swag and bragging rights aside, I always thought power was something you used to help others, not to lord over them.

I'm sorry but I hate people who cries just because they have "a life, wife, kids, school, my dog died, etc".
Don't expect to be an Elite in the game when you cant afford to put a minimum amount of time into it.
Just because you want to kill 1 mob to get cap lvl or want to run 1 dungeon to get all best gear it doesn't mean that all of us thinks the same.

There are lots of people, casual people, not just hardcore who wants to have a little gratification for achieving something that took them more than 20 minutes to accomplish.

So being "elite" is all about scheduling, and not about skill?

I'm fine with the instance taking time, being hard, etc. etc., but make the damn game available when people want to play it. I've got enough things to schedule IRL as you say, I want to be able to hop on the game and run challenging content at my convenience. If no one is on DF running it, thats another story, but at least it should be there.

This isn't about an equality of outcomes -- I don't want the content itself changed in any way to just hand out 'phat lewt'. I'm interested in a greater equality of opportunity to access the actual instance. Its 2013 -- theres no excuse for a system requiring hours of LFP shouts just to get in to the instance.

No on DF, skill check would be just as important as a gear check. WP/AK are not hard and on a long enough timeline anyone could gear themselves in iLVL 90 gear. But it won't make them up to clearing coil effectively. Yoshi already stated he wanted people to form groups from their own servers.

The reason they have lockout timers is prevent people from kitting out their entire FC in coil gear in a few weeks.

1) I think you missed the point: I'm ok with loot lockouts, the concern is participation lockouts. Maybe you're trying to say they'd just go back and carry FC members? Not sure. But supposing a gear check was in place I don't see how this would be an issue.
2) If the content is the same, save it's just accessible by DF, how would this change the 'skill check'? Same as any other dungeon, if the party sucks and wipes, u leave or time out and do-over. I don't get how this is even an issue.

I didn't miss the point, without lock outs you could run over and over until each person in your team gets some gear. This is something the devs do not want, just like they don't want it to be a DF instance. It's absolutely set up so that only experienced and geared teams will be able to consistently clear the content. They would have to water it down quite a bit for a DF group to be able to complete.

I see where we had the disconnect. In my understanding of a loot lockout (in games I've played previously), you lose the right to roll once you've beaten the boss once, regardless if you received the drop or not. It's not just for the player that gets the drop.

As far as the watering down, I don't think it should be changed at all. There's absolutely no harm making the content available for players to try via DF. Ideally there'd be a gear check, so that wouldn't be an issue, but even if there wasn't players could still attempt the content, see where they were lacking, then give it another go once they've shored up their gear and tactics. I would think that would also encourage the use of statics as those players that feel a fixed party would be more efficient connect with like-minded individuals and start running the content together. As it stands, there's no opportunity for that, and it makes for a breeding ground for cliquishness and elitism (copious amounts of which are evident in this thread ^_^;; ).

I like both solutions but not sure how successful DF parties will be in Coil.

A month ago I would have agreed, but the few PUGs I've been able to get for coil have been pretty good. Ofc theres a big difference between turn 1 and turn 4, so difficulty does scale, but I think people too easily write off the 'derp finder.'

I welcome BC in DF, but only if the difficulty doesn't change. BC is designed as the ultimate end-game content. It must not be dumbed down.

Agreed. Those times I've been able to get a party, it's been a really enjoyable experience. I don't think it needs dumbing down, I'd just like to see it accessible so people can actually enjoy it without having to spend their entire day LFP or being locked in to a static.

Unlimited would be awesome, but instead I propose that the drops become currency instead like Philosophy/Mythology. You can use this currency to buy Allagan gear only.

Mixed feelings. One the one hand, yeah. One the other hand, seems redundant with the AF2 system.

DF can't work for coil.
Coil type instance is very different to other MMO instance. It required a lots of strategy. For different group setup, the strategy could be very different. need group commander to call what every one should do for each turn. so I don't think df could work, even turn1

This essentially says to me, "It would be hard and people would probably fail, so they shouldn't even offer the content." As I said above, I don't understand this mentality -- why not make it available for people to try? It's difficult, and requires strategy, but I don't think that means you can't be thrown in with a group of new people and learn to beat the instance together. If you don't have the patience to work with new people in a challenging environment, then don't do it, but why restrict others from doing so if they so choose?

It's like SE looked at their options and said, "Ya know, Y2K was great, wasn't it? I bet people really miss LAN parties. Let's make something that feels like that!" Nothing says massively multiplayer like playing the same content, the same way, with the same 7 people, week after week after week.

It was said that very few people would clear coil this year, it is absolutely intended to be exclusive and not for the have nots.

As it stands right now many people are just logging in for their raid times and that's it, there is nothing else to do until a content update. Take away that and you leave a lot of very dedicated players with nothing to work for.

There is exactly one (1) piece of content in the game that is designed for statics, it is not much to ask for that there is at least something left for people who enjoy to play like this. Personally, progressing in a static feels very rewarding and I would be sad to see it any other way.

Why does that mean others need to be locked out? I'm not asking that the content itself be changed or made easier in any way, nor that the amount of loot be modified. If the difference in said 'haves' and 'have-nots' is simply access to a static party, there's something very wrong with the game. I think that's great that the content is designed to be difficult, but if SE wants people to form statics they should rely on the difficulty of the content to incentivize players towards making said statics for the sake of efficiency in their gear farms, and not default to simply locking players out just because it seems the thing to do.

[Eldarion18]

I like both solutions but not sure how successful DF parties will be in Coil.

[VitaminMT]

I don't see what the issue is. Coil is currently meant to be the most difficult content; it makes sense that you can't just rope together a bunch of nobodies and expect to win with any consistency. If you want to wait for your friends, wait for your friends. If you want to run coil while they catch up, nothing's stopping you from leaving your current static party once your friends are geared up.

[Wobi]

- Enable DF functionality for Coil, preferrably with some kind of gear check
- Functionality for players to run Coil unlimited number of times per week, with loot lockouts after first attempt (and ideally some other, smaller reward like a modest gil drop, etc.)

No on DF, skill check would be just as important as a gear check. WP/AK are not hard and on a long enough timeline anyone could gear themselves in iLVL 90 gear. But it won't make them up to clearing coil effectively. Yoshi already stated he wanted people to form groups from their own servers.

The reason they have lockout timers is prevent people from kitting out their entire FC in coil gear in a few weeks.

[Mayin]

I run with a FC that has 11 members that I hooked up with randomly and became friends with. I am not a member of that FC, but we run every week and have become skilled enough to get to T4. If I can find a static group with a small FC, so can you ! : D

[Nullie]

I sometimes play dungeons because I enjoy running them with random people. I have this option to do that at anytime. I cannot do this with BCoB.
I would love to play with my static party and then help my free company.

That being said, I don't know how a loot lockout would work exactly. I mean I understand where this is going, but you know what it would lead too. An infinite selling amount.

I personally like the way it is right now. It gives players the opportunity to improve their skills and use better teamwork. To me, in my own opinion, that is how this game should be played. We can clear the first 4 floors no problem now and we did it with practice, perseverance and determination. I know other people can as well without relying too heavily on people who have already beat it to help them through it.

[Zfz]

Things I can come up for the lockout:

1. No more filling in a raid for the guild and ending up running the same raid 3 times per week. Wanting to level up other classes ends up making me look selfish. It happens. It really does. In a big enough guild, people will keep asking the "best" and most vocal people to help out or to straight out lead them, while refusing to form up their own raid even though there are plenty of people around wanting to do it.

2. Progression pressure. Competitive guilds will feel pressured to invest heavy time into practicing fights and farming loot for everyone (including their backup raiders). So they end up running the same raid 20 times in the first week. Then the next week they all of the sudden have 3 raids on farm. This will also make it impossible for anyone but the "professional" players (read: people who can spend 60 hours a week on the game) to compete for world firsts.

3. "Selling BC Turn1-4 gear. Professional raid to help you gear up! 200k per run."

--

I welcome BC in DF, but only if the difficulty doesn't change. BC is designed as the ultimate end-game content. It must not be dumbed down.

[Yoona]

Unlimited would be awesome, but instead I propose that the drops become currency instead like Philosophy/Mythology. You can use this currency to buy Allagan gear only.

[neoreturn]

DF can't work for coil.
Coil type instance is very different to other MMO instance. It required a lots of strategy. For different group setup, the strategy could be very different. need group commander to call what every one should do for each turn. so I don't think df could work, even turn1

[SarcasmMisser]

It was said that very few people would clear coil this year, it is absolutely intended to be exclusive and not for the have nots.

As it stands right now many people are just logging in for their raid times and that's it, there is nothing else to do until a content update. Take away that and you leave a lot of very dedicated players with nothing to work for.

There is exactly one (1) piece of content in the game that is designed for statics, it is not much to ask for that there is at least something left for people who enjoy to play like this. Personally, progressing in a static feels very rewarding and I would be sad to see it any other way.