Monk- general discussion and feedback

[NoctisUmbra]

So then I guess your ultimate point is that the damage you claim to put out is only due to your own skill level and cannot be traced back to Monk itself unless you yourself have played every single DPS class and tested all? That's what you said.

What I'm saying is if you play MNK and your friend plays BRD and he consistently does more DPS than you, that does not mean BRD is a better DPS than MNK. The reason is, you haven't accounted for the variable that is player skill.

The scientific method. Familiarize yourself with it. You need to hold every variable constant except for the one you are testing in order to produce a test that means anything.

I want to comment. Of course Im in care about balance, but for me highest priority is fixing something, what is undone or done in wrong way. If balance is nice and after fixing balance will shift left or right- It meens, that next step- must be made something to regain balance. BUT- as I sad- highest top priority to fix what is wrong or unfair even it meens to shift balance, because balance can be repaired

Understood.

What I'm saying is, there is nothing wrong or unfair about MNK - at least not in the capacity that you suggest. Matter of opinion/preference/perspective perhaps.

Also, rebalancing things is not that easy. The devs need to not only consider every other job, but also all the content they design when making such tweaks. It is quite the undertaking.

[Ranka]

1) Ya I agree with this one.
2) Do not agree with this really, because with using your skills/global cooldowns optimally you can put it up again by the time.
3) This one I can agree with lowering the cooldown, but maybe to 90 seconds same as BfB.
4) No hard feeling son this one.
5) No don't change this, monk is the only class that can solo silence ADS. Do not needs to change that.
6) Do not mind either way.
7) I just dont like the tp cost of it, everything else is fine.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

Jobs can be a bit better at things. But not frustratingly so. Clearly a BLM is better then a MNK at AOE, I have no issue with this. A BLM is better at CCing, A MNK is better at offtanking something for a bit. A MNK is better at single target damage in a standstill fight. Get alot of movement and a Bard is better. That's ok, those are differences in balance that are overall fair and add to class uniqueness. Every class has it's role to fill as it should. However when it can't fill that role correctly there is a problem.

quoting you here to back me up.
"I will admit that MNK isn't as good as some other jobs when it comes to solo play, due to being highly dependent on positional combos and having trouble chaining targets effectively."
That is the annoying difference I'm talking about. There are things that aren't working with the class. It's solo, it's the easiest part of the game, just monk kinda fumbles the ball when it comes to this. Why is this(GL and positioning based attacks, but more rhetorical question here)? And why shouldn't SE look to improve part of their game?
You would agree that GL is what makes up the difference (and pushes over the top) for monk dps right? That if GL did not exist at all, that monk would be on the bottom of the pile?
GL is a non-factor while solo, leaving for a bad experience in a lot of places.

And going from 1-20 is not a lot of solo experience, sorry but it's not
and if I want to point out a true contradiction, I'll just quote you talking about friends/groups exp again and the BG win. Reminds me of WoW guild fanboys a bit but in reverse "OH this guild didn't use a druid for world first, druids must suck!"

[Allyrion]

I dodnt care about this. I know runs in Castrum with one tank and 7 whitemages and runs were EXTRIMLY very fast- much faster then normal raid. Does that meens that whitemage are the most powerfull DPS?- no, doesnt meen. I want to say (as for me)- I see problems in monk's skills and mechanics and I dont care about balance at all- if, by fixing monk other classes will become weaker, so it meens, that this classes must be fixed next. Problem exist- it must be fixed- I see problems in monk's skill's and mechanics. Bug or issues- doest metter. If, after fixing, will apper new bug, so, it must be fixed next. Logic is simple.

Your "fixing" is just buffing. I think you're the type of person who says we should just buff all the classes to make everyone happy.
Then suddenly the game is a lot easier and people find no challenge.


The only clever suggestion I've read in this thread is this:

A thought I've been toying with is a base-damage modifier increase for all monk skills when they are surrounded by more mobs. Trash packs in dungeons then get spiked damage on the front end of the fight when there are more mobs around (call it within 5 yalms or so) that then tapers off as they start to die off. Im sure it would need testing and likely a total increase cap (like 50% for 5x mobs or something...to avoid 1-punch kills during WP speed runs with near 20 mobs around)

Now let me be clear, I don't think monk needs this. It would make us way too strong (well, 50% is just a huge number).
BUT the idea has merit. Why? Because it's not trying to dumb us down.
No, it's trying to ADD a mechanic.
Increasing durations makes things easier. Lowering cds is just a damage buff which we don't need.

If we need more utility or even just better soloing, you guys need (and can) to come up with things that doesn't necessarily clash with monk play at end game.
I'm not giving much help in this regard, but I'm also not trying to pretend to be a game designer like you all are!

I don't think you love monks, Onyxys. If you did, you wouldn't be trying the change the core mechanics. Why even play monk if you don't like the core of the class?
You say you love it so you want it stronger. Well, if any of your damage changes goes forward we'd be nerfed the patch after. None of your crying will stop that nerf either.

If you want to fix issues with monk, you have to be more clever than that.
GL3 does not need increasing because of dungeons or solo-ing. There might be a solution for this otherwise, but one that adds to the class rather than takes away.
The quote above may be an overpowered idea, but at least it still keeps the spirit of monk being a sustained single target damage dealer shine even in aoe situations.

Fixing problems is good. Don't fix what's not broken. Don't break things trying to fix something else.
Please.
Because I ACTUALLY love this class.

In reference to:

Get out of here, Cynric. This is the thread for people, who like monk class and want to make it stronger by rebalancing some things in monk's skills. You are just a troll. Get out of here, troll

This is the thread for people, who like monk class and want to make it stronger by rebalancing some things in monk's skills.

[DerpyCubone]

The scientific method. Familiarize yourself with it. You need to hold every variable constant except for the one you are testing in order to produce a test that means anything.

That's not what that is, Your confusing the big picture with some of the steps in between. The scientific method is just the steps needed, it's the large steps in between cutting down variables is part of it, but it is not it. Familiarize yourself with it.

it's basically, Idea -> What you think will happen-> Test -> What did/didnt happen-> Ta-dA!

[NoctisUmbra]

And going from 1-20 is not a lot of solo experience, sorry but it's not
and if I want to point out a true contradiction, I'll just quote you talking about friends/groups exp again and the BG win. Reminds me of WoW guild fanboys a bit but in reverse "OH this guild didn't use a druid for world first, druids must suck!"

Do not confuse me pointing out examples of MNK being involved in high-caliber content as a viable option to refute any claims of MNK being an incapable DPS as my trying to suggest that as concrete evidence to MNK being amazing.

When someone suggests that something is impossible, you only need to show 1 case of it being possible to refute their claim.

That being said, yes suggesting that a class/job sucks because a top guild did not use it for a world first is nonsensical.

However, suggesting that a class/job is viable because a top guild did in fact use it for a world first is not nonsensical. It is not sufficient, but it does in fact support the assertion.

That's not what that is, Your confusing the big picture with some of the steps in between. The scientific method is just the steps needed, it's the large steps in between cutting down variables is part of it, but it is not it. Familiarize yourself with it.

it's basically, Idea -> What you think will happen-> Test -> What did/didnt happen-> Ta-dA!

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Seriously, you seem to have some obsession with me at this point.

I am referring to the testing phase. You cannot meaningfully test something without holding outside variables constant.

[DerpyCubone]

Do not confuse me pointing out examples of MNK being involved in high-caliber content as a viable option to refute any claims of MNK being an incapable DPS as my trying to suggest that as concrete evidence to MNK being amazing.

When someone suggests that something is impossible, you only need to show 1 case of it being possible to refute their claim.

That being said, yes suggesting that a class/job sucks because a top guild did not use it for a world first is nonsensical.

However, suggesting that a class/job is viable because a top guild did in fact use it for a world first is not nonsensical. It is not sufficient, but it does in fact support the assertion.

*For that fight, not all aspects of the game
Kinda left that part out there I think

Also... who said anything about anything being impossible? I don't think anyone mentioned that at all? Could you please point that out where it was said? I might have missed it.

Added thoughts:
"However, suggesting that a class/job is viable because a top guild did in fact use it for a world first is not nonsensical. It is not sufficient, but it does in fact support the assertion." No one is claiming monk isn't viable, those are your words, not mine. I think monk "DPS numbers and raid role" are fine. That has nothing to do with this... so your point... well there isn't one at all really.

Me: Monk needs tweaking to be a little more solo friendly and fun to play/flow better on certain fights
You: Monk DPS is fine, They are viable raiders

You see how those aren't the same?

[NoctisUmbra]

*For that fight, not all aspects of the game
Kinda left that part out there I think

Also... who said anything about anything being impossible? I don't think anyone mentioned that at all? Could you please point that out where it was said? I might have missed it.

I was asked for my parse when I offered it. I assumed he was asking for it because he didn't believe it to be possible. I came into this thread to counter arguments related to MNK being subpar at DPS and needing fixes, which a number of people have suggested in both this thread and the previous thread from which this one spawned.

Onyxsys has since stated that he does not care about the balance - that he doesn't see an issue there. Therefore, that entire line of conversation is no longer relevant.

Added thoughts:
"However, suggesting that a class/job is viable because a top guild did in fact use it for a world first is not nonsensical. It is not sufficient, but it does in fact support the assertion." No one is claiming monk isn't viable, those are your words, not mine. I think monk "DPS numbers and raid role" are fine. That has nothing to do with this... so your point... well there isn't one at all really.

Me: Monk needs tweaking to be a little more solo friendly and fun to play/flow better on certain fights
You: Monk DPS is fine, They are Viable raiders

You see how those aren't the same?

Now we're just getting lost in the order of conversation here. That was in response to you suggesting it reminds you of WoW guild fanboys, etc. Not the solo play discussion.

You say two things. I respond to the second. You take the first thing you say, take my response, and say it doesn't make sense.

Seriously. I'm done here lol. It's never gonna end with you and your petty little nitpicking. I've said all I need to say.

[DerpyCubone]

Snip.

I was saying bring up BG was like reading the old (or current, I stop keeping up) world first threads on WoW, but in reverse. That's all there was too that. AKA you can't say Mnk is the best because it was there, just like you can't say that a Drg is the worst because it wasn't. That was honestly more me thinking out loud.

I do like how you didn't response to this
Me: Monk needs tweaking to be a little more solo friendly and fun to play/flow better on certain fights
You: Monk DPS is fine, They are Viable raiders
Well yea all of that is true, but admittedly monks are more frustrating on solo play. This is something that can be fixed. I do think that the fact that I have spent more time solo on my monk then you gives me a different outlook. I do not think we are seeing the same picture here at all. Monk has a unique buff that makes it awesome, but it doesn't always work as intended. Sometimes a fight will force the buff off, thats ok. Other times RNG will drop it off, and that's not. Not to mention solo/low man play

As far as the semantics things, just a pet peeve of mine. Sorry about that. I'm a science nerd so I tend to get annoyed when people mess things like that up.

[Rochetm]

I seem to be playing a different job then everyone else...

See also: Leave monk alone.