Is Rage of Halone Overpowered in GLA/PLD's Kit?

[Leiron]

Only WAR's damage thresholds are alot higher than PLD, and any WAR worth half a salt is going to at least keep Maim up a majority of the time to supplement that damage penalty. Let me put it to you this way, in full DL gear with +30 STR mods, Sword Oath, Relic +1, STR DL/Hero Accessories and DPS buffs, the highest I've ever ever hit on PLD was 699, on WAR with Lv55 VIT Accessories, +30 VIT mods, Ifrits Axe, full DL, Defiance, Maim, w/o Berserk I've hit for 875 and can crit in the 600-800 range quite often despite the PLD having higher STR and Better weapon. That difference in damage alone will give the WAR an edge in Enmity generation, proving that the WAR does know what they are doing.

I do not believe you're considering how effective Sword Oath's effect is.

[Jubez187]

I wouldn't mind if the STR Down effect went onto Riot Blade and they added a way to use Shield Swipe for increased enmity (Shield Swipe -> Spirits or Circle of Scorn, something like that). Warriors should probably also get STR Down on Fracture.

Yea I wish they would do something about Riot Blade. Only if you flash spam would you ever have to use it, such a waste of a skill (and with GLA/PLD having pretty much just buff skills..we can't afford to waste a weapon skill). Shield swipe is a fun skill but I wish it scaled off of Block Strength for extra damage. All in all, I don't think SE is that great at making interesting skills and kits (as compared to new-age games like DOTA and LoL).

[Paikis]

I do not believe you're considering how effective Sword Oath's effect is.

You aren't tanking anything that matters in Sword Oath. For things that do matter, the PLD has 'enough' threat generation, but it still isn't anything like what a Warrior can do.

[Leiron]

You aren't tanking anything that matters in Sword Oath.

Irrelevant, if you are doing a comparison of War DPS to PLD DPS, then you compare them as appropriate.

Warrior without defiance vs PLD with Sword oath.
In such a scenario, the two are very close if not the exact same.

When you consider tanking/
Shield oath is 20%.
Defiance is 25%.
You're only doing SLIGHTLY less damage than a Warrior in Defiance mode vs PLD in Shield oath mode, to the point that it does not even matter.
Yes, Warrior has the ability to provide stronger burst, but that is irrelevant because in the end, over the course of the encounter, they come out to roughly the same.

Let alone that in terms of threat generation, Warrior is only SLIGHTLY better than it as well, and that's only because of BB>BB>SE constantly being used.
Paladin doesn't have to apply a debuff to create maximum threat, and it has FoF, where as WAR has Berserk which is weaker than FoF.

Fact of the matter is threat is threat.
As long as you are top of the list and maintain being top of the list, then it does not matter.

[Kitru]

Let me put it to you this way, in full DL gear with +30 STR mods, Sword Oath, Relic +1, STR DL/Hero Accessories and DPS buffs, the highest I've ever ever hit on PLD was 699, on WAR with Lv55 VIT Accessories, +30 VIT mods, Ifrits Axe, full DL, Defiance, Maim, w/o Berserk I've hit for 875 and can crit in the 600-800 range quite often despite the PLD having higher STR and Better weapon.

Because damage dealt in a single attack has any kind of impact upon damage over time? PLD doesn't get big numbers: it just gets *more*.

That difference in damage alone will give the WAR an edge in Enmity generation, proving that the WAR does know what they are doing.

Except that it doesn't.

[NephHalp]

RoH's and BB's high threat output is necessary for endgame tanking. As a tank I don't particularly care about the damage output on skills and I don't see it as gamebreaking until the "ideal" group comp becomes something silly like PLDx6 or WARx6 + two healers. The STR reduction on RoH doesn't affect magic damage, which is more than plentiful at 50.

ITT: Level 29s start balance discussions.

[Sephirah]

Yea I wish they would do something about Riot Blade. Only if you flash spam would you ever have to use it, such a waste of a skill (and with GLA/PLD having pretty much just buff skills..we can't afford to waste a weapon skill). Shield swipe is a fun skill but I wish it scaled off of Block Strength for extra damage. All in all, I don't think SE is that great at making interesting skills and kits (as compared to new-age games like DOTA and LoL).

You clearly haven't done any end-game tanking where there ARE times when you HAVE to spam flash and use riot blade to regain your MP before the next wave. Speaking as a PLD on turn 4, I don't think Rage of Halone is OP.

All your abilities are useful (even awareness, although that's the least useful one).

Our cross class abilities on the other hand could use some love. Foresight is really the only one you want. Stoneskin is nice but not needed.

Edit: I know being low level does not automatically mean you don't know what you're talking about, but you really should experience more of the game before you try getting abilities nerfed.

[SwordCoheir]

I do not believe you're considering how effective Sword Oath's effect is.

It's not a comparison of WAR vs. PLD DPS in this instance, it's deriving the actual value and worth of Enmity generation through spike damage. WAR's being able to smack a mob with a 1200 crit off of Butchers Block will have the ability to conjure higher Enmity pools than PLD, proving that they know what they're doing to continueously pull off a decent amount of Crits.

*snip*

Problem is alot of these mathmatical formulas/analysis people like to post as fact will always have something funadmentally wrong with their mathmatical process or leave out something vital, and as with all math the input will always affect the output. Like take the "Fracture is Useless" thread, by the end of the thread several people listed plausable situations where Fracture was useful and proved the TP/DPS cost was more effecient proving you had the spare TP to utilize it. It also goes without saying that the fight itself can dictate how accurate the "math" can actually be when things like adds, party deaths, critcial hits, optimal rotations (everyones is different), and other variances come into play on your performance.

[Wyndam]

The only change I would make to Rage of Halone is I would change the enmity to be applied at the beginning of the animation rather than waiting until the damage occurs. The animation time can be a nuisance if you're using it to pick up a freshly spawned add or follow up a provoke. Otherwise I might move some of the threat from RoH to Fast Blade so the overall combo is a little smoother. But for the most part it's fine and these complaints are just inconveniences.

[Leiron]

ten characters

It's not a comparison of WAR vs. PLD DPS in this instance, it's deriving the actual value and worth of Enmity generation through spike damage. WAR's being able to smack a mob with a 1200 crit off of Butchers Block will have the ability to conjure higher Enmity pools than PLD, proving that they know what they're doing to continueously pull off a decent amount of Crits.

In what situation are you pulling 1200 crits?
Are you honestly popping Unchained, Berserk and Internal release just for the sake of Enmity generation?
First off..Unchained is a HORRIBLE skill, it makes you a weaker tank.
Second, you are considering a spike, but you're not considering the valleys that result for Warriors in terms of enmity generation.
Do you have some math suggesting Maim and SE create large Enmity generation? No, they don't.

Yes, Paladin does not do 1200 crits, but that is because it does NOT NEED to crit for 1200.
A Warrior needs to use SE and Maim to improve their enmity generation.
A Paladin does not.
They will spam Rage of Halone over and over and over, they don't need to take a hit to enmity generation to apply buffs/debuffs to the themselves to the target.
They don't have a "valley" like Warrior does with Maim and Storm's Edge.




The overall enmity generation of a Warrior and Paladin is only SLIGHTLY in favor of the Warrior, and even then it simply does NOT matter.

Problem is alot of these mathmatical formulas/analysis people like to post as fact will always have something funadmentally wrong with their mathmatical process or leave out something vital, and as with all math the input will always affect the output. Like take the "Fracture is Useless" thread, by the end of the thread several people listed plausable situations where Fracture was useful and proved the TP/DPS cost was more effecient proving you had the spare TP to utilize it. It also goes without saying that the fight itself can dictate how accurate the "math" can actually be when things like adds, party deaths, critcial hits, optimal rotations (everyones is different), and other variances come into play on your performance.

If the mathematical process is flawed, then point out in the way it is flawed instead of ASSUMING it is flawed in favor of YOUR own point of view.
Kitru's argument was perfectly valid, and frankly, if you are honestly suggesting he/she was wrong, then that is because you completely did not understand the context of the argument.
Which was simply the following.

TP is limited.
Building enmity is more important, than adding a tiny bit more to your DPS.
If you can afford it, use it.
If you can't, don't.

If you don't understand an argument, say so, don't assume you understand when often times, people don't, and will gladly overlook things to support their view. Like you.