Is Rage of Halone Overpowered in GLA/PLD's Kit?

[Leiron]

ten characters

It's not a comparison of WAR vs. PLD DPS in this instance, it's deriving the actual value and worth of Enmity generation through spike damage. WAR's being able to smack a mob with a 1200 crit off of Butchers Block will have the ability to conjure higher Enmity pools than PLD, proving that they know what they're doing to continueously pull off a decent amount of Crits.

In what situation are you pulling 1200 crits?
Are you honestly popping Unchained, Berserk and Internal release just for the sake of Enmity generation?
First off..Unchained is a HORRIBLE skill, it makes you a weaker tank.
Second, you are considering a spike, but you're not considering the valleys that result for Warriors in terms of enmity generation.
Do you have some math suggesting Maim and SE create large Enmity generation? No, they don't.

Yes, Paladin does not do 1200 crits, but that is because it does NOT NEED to crit for 1200.
A Warrior needs to use SE and Maim to improve their enmity generation.
A Paladin does not.
They will spam Rage of Halone over and over and over, they don't need to take a hit to enmity generation to apply buffs/debuffs to the themselves to the target.
They don't have a "valley" like Warrior does with Maim and Storm's Edge.




The overall enmity generation of a Warrior and Paladin is only SLIGHTLY in favor of the Warrior, and even then it simply does NOT matter.

Problem is alot of these mathmatical formulas/analysis people like to post as fact will always have something funadmentally wrong with their mathmatical process or leave out something vital, and as with all math the input will always affect the output. Like take the "Fracture is Useless" thread, by the end of the thread several people listed plausable situations where Fracture was useful and proved the TP/DPS cost was more effecient proving you had the spare TP to utilize it. It also goes without saying that the fight itself can dictate how accurate the "math" can actually be when things like adds, party deaths, critcial hits, optimal rotations (everyones is different), and other variances come into play on your performance.

If the mathematical process is flawed, then point out in the way it is flawed instead of ASSUMING it is flawed in favor of YOUR own point of view.
Kitru's argument was perfectly valid, and frankly, if you are honestly suggesting he/she was wrong, then that is because you completely did not understand the context of the argument.
Which was simply the following.

TP is limited.
Building enmity is more important, than adding a tiny bit more to your DPS.
If you can afford it, use it.
If you can't, don't.

If you don't understand an argument, say so, don't assume you understand when often times, people don't, and will gladly overlook things to support their view. Like you.

[SwordCoheir]

*snip*

First, your confusing me here, how does Unchained make you a weaker tank? Your seriously throwing aside a chance to remove Definances damage reduction effects while still reaping ALL the other benefits of Defiance, considering you can just throw up Infuriate to replenish your Wraith and hit a higher Enmity threshold too boot? PLD and WAR's Enmity generation is based entirely on Damage outside of Provoke/Flash, by all accounts you should be making those hits on your combos count as it lets the group hit harder and gives you more threat buffer for times you can't match the enmity generation of other party members.

I might be considering Spikes in terms of Enmity generation, but why wouldn't you be trying for spikes especially on your hate combos, DPS don't just go popping their buffs just to use their weaskest weaponskills and spells, right? WAR has some serious spike potential over PLD and that offsets the lack of Spirits/CoS, and the only valley in terms of enmity is utilizing Maim/SE for the extra damage and the short pacification on Berserk. You could just spam your BB combo for maximum hate efficiency, but throwing out whatever extra damage you can is going to come back and help the party in the end by making the fight shorter even if only by a few K hp.

Second, there's the ongoing argument how WAR should be played, how it's designed, and how to change it. These forums are very divided on it, as half want it to be like and play like PLD and will play it like one (though WAR's not exactly designed for it), the other half like the micro-managing side of WAR and prefer to keep it that way with some minor improvements like more/faster ways to build Wraith or better self healing on SP and IB.

So keeping that in mind, anyone questioning someone elses theory/math always leaves an opening for "Your just changing the situation to fit your own benifit." argument, but I'm not really going against it I just saw some problems in Kitru's process. For instance Coramac pointed out a big flaw in Kitru's math that I happened to agree with because TP regeneration is constant regardless of your moveset though I may not have neccessarily agreed with his tact in proving his point, and I know there are times your not always attacking so you have extra TP to burn or you need to reserve TP depending on the situation which is something her math doesn't/can't account for. It's like saying Holmgang is completely useless, though in most situations yes I'd agree, but it doesn't mean there's absolutely no use for it (IE: Preventing Knockback on Demon Walls Repel or using it at the beginning of a battle to keep the mob from running if a healer overcures).

[Leiron]

First, your confusing me here, how does Unchained make you a weaker tank?

Unlike Paladin, Warrior needs to build up Wrath stacks for the healing bonus.
That healing bonus i what helps a Warrior be less squihy, because it means the healing is more effective, and it takes less casts to top them off.
Even then, a Paladin's shield oath alone still puts them ahead.
Using unchained consumes all of your wrath stacks for a damage increase that would not do anything for you in the long term.
You're making yourself more squishy for a DPS increase that has very little impact.

Your seriously throwing aside a chance to remove Definances damage reduction effects while still reaping ALL the other benefits of Defiance, considering you can just throw up Infuriate to replenish your Wraith and hit a higher Enmity threshold too boot? PLD and WAR's Enmity generation is based entirely on Damage outside of Provoke/Flash, by all accounts you should be making those hits on your combos count as it lets the group hit harder and gives you more threat buffer for times you can't match the enmity generation of other party members.

You're playing a Warrior wrong.
First of all, Defiance has an enmity multiplier built into it.
Second, Warrior enmity generation WITHOUT berserk/unchained is higher than a Paladin just from doing BB>BB>SE.
Infuriate is there solely so you can utilize inner beast immediately after.
When you're taking 5.5k hp worth of damage as a Warrior, and the average inner beast with a relic weapon is about 1.15k hp out of 7k HP, yea, you're not going to be using infuriate.
MItigating Titna's burst of 5k HP to about 2.7k hp is infinitely better, than using Unchained for a minor boost towards your damage.
If you are having issues holding agro without unchained, then your rotation is messed up and you need to look into it.

There is absolutely no reason for you to be using Unchained unless you so severely outgear the content, in which case, you might as well be popping Steel cyclone for faster mob killing!

I might be considering Spikes in terms of Enmity generation,

Which you do not need to.

but why wouldn't you be trying for spikes especially on your hate combos, DPS don't just go popping their buffs just to use their weaskest weaponskills and spells, right? WAR has some serious spike potential over PLD and that offsets the lack of Spirits/CoS

Because you do not need to.
Defiance/Shield oath provide an enmity multiplier on top of your high enmity abilities.
You can very easily pop Berserk/FoF and that would provide you with enough enmity, assuming that the DPS does not horribly over gear you, which, if you have a Relic weapon, won't be happening.
The only time threat would become an issue is cases where the tank cannot attack the target, in which case, you just wasted time from your Unchained, gave up yur wrath stacks, wasted an infuriate that could be used towards mitigating damage (your second role), or have to spend over 20 seconds rebuilding wrath stacks.

You're not a Paladin, stop trying to play your Warrior like one.

and the only valley in terms of enmity is utilizing Maim/SE for the extra damage and the short pacification on Berserk. You could just spam your BB combo for maximum hate efficiency, but throwing out whatever extra damage you can is going to come back and help the party in the end by making the fight shorter even if only by a few K hp.

You are thinking Paladin.
Warrior is different.
Maximum hate efficiency involves utilizing SE.
BB>BB>SE>BB>BB>SE
Your DPS is NOT helping the party out at all.
You're making it harder for the healers to keep you up, and you are sacrificing inner beast in the process.
This is something you can only do when you severely outgear the content.
When you are on par with the content, you DONT do it.
If you do that with Caduceus or ADS or any other BC boss, you'd deserve to be kicked out.

Second, there's the ongoing argument how WAR should be played, how it's designed, and how to change it. These forums are very divided on it, as half want it to be like and play like PLD and will play it like one (though WAR's not exactly designed for it), the other half like the micro-managing side of WAR and prefer to keep it that way with some minor improvements like more/faster ways to build Wraith or better self healing on SP and IB.

I don't need to keep that in mind because that has no influence on the discussion at hand, the fact you bring it up is quite a statement.

So keeping that in mind, anyone questioning someone elses theory/math always leaves an opening for "Your just changing the situation to fit your own benifit." argument,

Then it falls down to you to prove it, not ASSUME it.

but I'm not really going against it I just saw some problems in Kitru's process. For instance Coramac pointed out a big flaw in Kitru's math that I happened to agree with because TP regeneration is constant regardless of your moveset though I may not have neccessarily agreed with his tact in proving his point, and I know there are times your not always attacking so you have extra TP to burn or you need to reserve TP depending on the situation which is something her math doesn't/can't account for. It's like saying Holmgang is completely useless, though in most situations yes I'd agree, but it doesn't mean there's absolutely no use for it (IE: Preventing Knockback on Demon Walls Repel or using it at the beginning of a battle to keep the mob from running if a healer overcures).

This is why I stated you did not understand the argument.
Kitru's math accounted for the constant regeneration of TP.
TP regeneration is 50 TP every 2.5s (the GCD worth).
If the ability costs more than that, thne you lose TP.
SO heavy swing has a cost of 20.
SKull sunder 10, BB 10. SO on and so forth.

Fracture is 80, so faced against TP regeneration, it has a cost of 30.
For anyone but a Warrior, the damage is 220 potency.

IS it a DPS gain? Yes
Undoubtedly.
Can one say it is TP efficient? Not necessarily.
A skuller sunder has roughly the same potency, and BB/RoH have higher potency as well in a combo for a cost of only 10 TP and enmity generation.
Enmity generation is your prime concern, and while Fracture IS a DPS increase, the increase is rather minor and you can easily go without it.

THAT was Kitru's argument.
That fracture, while a DPS increase, is too small a DPS increase for Tank's to be concerned about, and that the 80TP cost, in consideration of the fact that tp regen is slower than what you spend, is over time a greater loss than just using an enmity generation ability as a tank.

It doesn't even take math to be able to make such a statement as you can make it simply by eyeballing the cost/potency.
The only reason people are arguing about it is because; god knows what reason; they operate under the idea that Tank DPS with fracture is much more different from the DPS without it.
Hint: It isn't.


Second hint: Stop using Unchained. It is a bad ability.
As a Warrior, you don't ever bother with Unchained/Steel Cyclone.
Your enmity generation is more than high enough that you could pop Inner release/Berserk for greater enmity generation.
The 10% higher crit rate a Berserk has also helps provide a larger enmity boost as well.

[Quor]

I'm curious, but back when my MRD was at level with my GLD, I saw more of a damage increase from Berserk than I did from FoF.

Why is FoF seen as clearly superior? Because of the Pacify debuff?

[Sapphidia]

I'm curious, but back when my MRD was at level with my GLD, I saw more of a damage increase from Berserk than I did from FoF.

Why is FoF seen as clearly superior? Because of the Pacify debuff?

Berserk only lasts 20 seconds, Fight or Flight lasts 30 seconds. FoF is a flat 30% which can be kept up 1/3 of the time, so a 10% damage increase on average. Berserk is more like 40% (it's 50% attack power) but with 2/9 uptime, which makes it more like 8-9% total damage increase. So even without the pacification taken into account, FoF clearly has a bit more damage increase over time.

Then you factor in 5 seconds of pacification and the gaps widens hugely. But due to the pacification it also means that you can't -spam- berserk really. You have to use it more tactically so you arent put in an awkward situation due to the pacify, whereas a paladin can simply macro FoF into their rotation and have it up every 90 seconds without fail. Thus whereas FoF is pretty much a flat 10% damage increase, Berserk is much more of a spike-damage cooldown that probably equates to more of a 5% boost over time if you use it regularly.

Paladin and Warrior threat is pretty well balanced. Tests have shown time and again that outside of AOE situations the two classes do very similar damage. Warriors are a more complicated class to max out DPS as it requires a lot of decisionmaking with weaving cooldowns optimally, whereas a paladin can pretty much just pop FOF on cooldown, spam the Halone Combo and throw in Circle/Spirits on cooldown to max out their single target damage.

EDIT - and to get back on topic, I sort of agree with the OP. I think it would make for a slightly more interesting tanking situation if RoH was maybe x3 Enmity instead of x5, but overall enmity boosted to make it a similar total to how it is now. RoH needs to feel strong, and it should definitely be the highest threat move we have in combo, but right now it's almost 3 times the threat of Savage Blade. Dropping it back a bit might make things feel smoother.

[Quor]

Berserk only lasts 20 seconds, Fight or Flight lasts 30 seconds. FoF is a flat 30%, Berserk is more like 40% (it's 50% attack power). So even without the pacification taken into account, FoF clearly has more damage increase over time. Add in 5 seconds of pacification and the gaps widens. But due to the pacification it also means that you can't -spam- berserk really. You have to use it more tactically so you arent put in an awkward situation due to the pacify, whereas a paladin can simply macro FoF into their rotation and have it up every 90 seconds without fail.

Paladin and Warrior threat is pretty well balanced. Tests have shown time and again that outside of AOE situations the two classes do very similar damage. Warriors are a more complicated class to max out DPS as it requires a lot of decisionmaking with weaving cooldowns optimally, whereas a paladin can pretty much just pop FOF on cooldown, spam the Halone Combo and throw in Circle/Spirits on cooldown to max out their single target damage.

The 10 extra seconds makes sense, but as for Pacify....do people still not understand you can cleanse it?

I made a macro just for this reason:

/ac Berserk <me>
/p Berserk is up! Be ready to Leeches or Esuna in 20s please!
/wait 15
/p 5 seconds on Berserk!
/wait 4
/p Berserk is off, please Leeches or Esuna me! Thank you!

When I'm running with one of my healer friends, it's like there's no debuff at all. They know what to look for, and cleanse me before I even realize I'm debuffed.

[RapBreon]

The 10 extra seconds makes sense, but as for Pacify....do people still not understand you can cleanse it?

I made a macro just for this reason:

/ac Berserk <me>
/p Berserk is up! Be ready to Leeches or Esuna in 20s please!
/wait 15
/p 5 seconds on Berserk!
/wait 4
/p Berserk is off, please Leeches or Esuna me! Thank you!

When I'm running with one of my healer friends, it's like there's no debuff at all. They know what to look for, and cleanse me before I even realize I'm debuffed.

Whilst I somewhat object to comparing skills you like you have a healer at your back 24/7, I guess, contextually it is valid.

However, in end-game fights, healers really don't have time to waste a GCD to cleanse the short de-buff off you. You already contribute one of the lowest DPS, missing two GCDs is pretty low on the priority list. And you'll have a huge threat lead after Berserk regardless. You can always use flash during that time as well.

In a vacuum Berserk is worse, and in hard fights where your healers are busy, it's rarely going to get cleansed. So sure in content where DPS isn't a massive imperative (so easier fights in general), being cleansed would be nice, but it also wouldn't really matter.

[Donironheart]

Thats just great, a level 31 tank trying to say RoH is overpowered... Why dont you reach endgame, tank all the primals, and coil turns 1-5, THEN come and voice your experienced opinion instead of talking nonsense at such low levels. This thread should've died at page 1, hopefully it dies after this reply.

[Coramac]

I think we are missing the OP's point. RoH is "overpowered" because of the complete package. It is the highest DPS combo for Paladins, best threat combo, and brings extra utility. It really isn't so much that it is overpowered, so much as it is the more simple design of the game in terms of rotations and ability usage. The tanking in this game is far more streamlined and simple than most of the games I have tanked in before. This doesn't necessarily mean bad or overpowered. Several functions that are more commonly split out into separate abilities are frequently combined into one ability (or combo) in this game.

[Tanaya]

RoH is "overpowered" because of the complete package. It is the highest DPS combo for Paladins, best threat combo, and brings extra utility. It really isn't so much that it is overpowered, so much as it is the more simple design of the game in terms of rotations and ability usage.

Which is why I said Paladin is a simple job. You need threat? Halone combo. You need AoE threat? Flash. Need to take less damage? Defense cooldown.

Yes, Paladin has a very simple design. The root of the cause however is not Rage of Halone. You'd have to completely redesign how Paladin works to give it complexity.