Seriously

[Will01]

I just used the wording that the poster wrote, and even put in my post that I thought it was higher than that. If they meant 50 threads, they should have wrote 50 threads (50 posts are 50 or less people since only one person can write a post).



Okay so 50 threads at 8 pages a thread = 50x10x8 = 4000 even though the real figure is much lower as people have posted more than once.

4000 / 250,000 players = 0.016%

Even adding a 140 page thread you mentioned (another 1400 posts even though realistically people have posted more than once and/or were already included in the previous amount) would give:

5400 / 250,000 = 0.0216%

The 250,000 figure is obviously a guess, they haven't released figures other than the million people that were playing at the TGS, but I'm sure it's higher than the 25% figure I'm using now, but for demonstration purposes I'm using intentionally lower figures. My previous point was/still is that it's a small percentage who are affected.

There is one major flaw in this logic, it assumes everyone with the problem has taken to the forums.

[worldofneil]

There is one major flaw in this logic, it assumes everyone with the problem has taken to the forums.

Which means you're assuming there are considerably more people with lag issues that those that have posted on the forums. Where are they?

I'm haven't been assuming anything, I'm just pointing out the the information we do know, which is that the people with lag problems are in the extreme minority. If there are considerably more people with lag problems, where are they if they're not posting on the official forums?

It's not like these forums are a secret, especially since a lot of the responses SE email/phone support seems to give people is to post their problems on the forums.

The official "Feedback/suggestions" link is also direct to the forums too:

http://support.eu.square-enix.com/co...383&la=2&fty=3

[Sax]

Can't stand these people that think because they have not been 90k'd constantly or experience the lag that makes the game unplayable that it doesn't exist.

There is a large portion of the player base who are experiencing difficulties. Most of the people who have reported on this site have spoken with ISPs numerous times (myself included) run countless tests and for these people, all answers point to the problem being on SE's end of things.

Congrats if you have a constant and stable connection to the game, you should go and enjoy it instead of crapping all over the people that are having a real problem with SE. I was actually not having that much difficulty staying connected until the recent 'fix' and now I get booted every couple of minutes making the game unplayable.

I hope the same happens to all of you who say this is not a problem, just so we can point and laugh when you come crying to the forums when you realize there is no where else to get help for this.

[Drackony]

I play on Marlboro, listed as one of the lower population worlds, and the lag I was experiencing tonight was terrible. I ran trace routes then pings to every hop and the only problem was 10%+ packet loss at the destination server, which is the game server. All other hops were 0% packet loss. Please do something Square Enix!

[worldofneil]

There is a large portion of the player base who are experiencing difficulties.

Large proportion... based on what? A few hundred people posting on the forums? Compared the hundreds of thousands playing the game?

It's pretty easy to assume that the forums in general are a vast minority of the general player population. Most players just play the game (problems or not), and never go further.

Perhaps, but we don't know that for sure. All we (and SE for that matter) can base anything on is actual data. If other people have this problem and aren't complaining in the correct places, it can't be that big of a deal to them.

Can you at least agree that the currently most reported issue on the forums right now is lag/network connection related (and by a pretty decent margin)?

Nope I agree completely, but...

If you can agree it's the hottest issue reported by paying customers, can you agree that it's probably something SE should prioritize in trying to resolve?

They can't resolve something they can't fix. Whether people like to hear it or not, SE don't have control the Internet and how your traffic to them is routed. We already know from other threads that certain ISPs do filter traffic (older BT Internet contracts in the UK for example) so even if the ISP says the traffic isn't filtered, that isn't necessarily true (the person actually talking to customers, isn't the person in charge of traffic routing, they're just giving you the information as they've been told which may/may not be up to date).

Even if the traffic isn't being filtered, that doesn't mean it isn't somewhere else on route either as it'll have to pass through multiple networks to get to SE. People keep posting traceroutes to show their path to SE, but all that shows is the path, it's not a good guide to the actual flow of data. The ICMP ping times are a completely different protocol to the TCP/UDP packets that the game uses when playing. ICMP traffic is rarely filtered because by design it's there for diagnostic purposes, TCP/UDP traffic are both filtered all the time.

Which brings me on to:

it also wouldn't hurt to have some type of communications to their customer base about hot issues they are looking at.

I will completely agree that SE's support team is pretty sucky, I myself have a ticket open from JULY where I've been trying to update an email address because it won't change it on the website and even though I have access to old and new emails so could easily verify with them, they bounced it around different departments for a while and eventually it got sidelined and nothing has happened with it for a few months now so I've given up in it ever getting resolved. Given the complaints on the forums about support it seems clear that newer tickets are still having the same lack of "support" too.

But in this whole "lag" issue, I can actually understand their silence. They cannot make a statement addressing the lag without also accepting blame for it. Their original response about it was that they understood that some players were having problems and they'd try and resolve it with Internet providers. Well I have no idea if they've done that or not, but that's all they can do, give the ISP as much information as they want, it's still up to the ISP to change it and if the filtering issues are happening somewhere else up the line, it might be out of the ISPs control then anyway (and/or they won't care as it's too much hassle by this point).

The only thing SE could realistically do would be to either throw a lot of money at major Internet backbones around the world to prioritise their traffic (not even sure they'd do that) or create multiple data centres around the world to minimise the network traffic, but ignoring the fact that the cost would be insane compared to the percentage of people with a problem (yep I went back to that again), even if they magically did that, it'd be a complete nightmare for everyone to change worlds and transfer onto local servers.

Unless of course you really believe that everyone is lying about this problem, or you somehow think it's user error.

Nope I do believe it's a problem, I've only ever been trying to point out two things:

1) The percentage of people affected doesn't appear to be as big as people are making out (which if I'm wrong I apologise, but unless there's some actual evidence what am I supposed to think?). If there are considerably more people, then where are they?

2) SE doesn't control the Internet, they can't magically reroute your traffic.

worldofneil - you do make me laugh. If you took your assumptions and math workings.....then not one single issue would be a problem as the percentage would be so small.

Again, I never said this wasn't an actual problem, just that people are overexagerating the size of it.

The solution here seems clear, all the people that apparently have this problem, but haven't posted on the forums, tell them to get on here and post.

Not would you be able to throw it at me with a "told you so", but it'd demonstrate to SE the problem is bigger than it currently looks (although not sure they'd consider the subscription costs of those people worth the cost of local data centres etc as the game has already cost them a fortune with 1.0, but you never know...). They're certainly not going to do anything drastic like that without a lot more people though!

[whilke]

They can't resolve something they can't fix. Whether people like to hear it or not, SE don't have control the Internet and how your traffic to them is routed. We already know from other threads that certain ISPs do filter traffic (older BT Internet contracts in the UK for example) so even if the ISP says the traffic isn't filtered, that isn't necessarily true (the person actually talking to customers, isn't the person in charge of traffic routing, they're just giving you the information as they've been told which may/may not be up to date).

Even if the traffic isn't being filtered, that doesn't mean it isn't somewhere else on route either as it'll have to pass through multiple networks to get to SE. People keep posting traceroutes to show their path to SE, but all that shows is the path, it's not a good guide to the actual flow of data. The ICMP ping times are a completely different protocol to the TCP/UDP packets that the game uses when playing. ICMP traffic is rarely filtered because by design it's there for diagnostic purposes, TCP/UDP traffic are both filtered all the time.

This is in their realm of being able to fix. It's their network protocol running over TCP, and their backend/client code to sync that up. Right now, their system does not handle packet loss and jitter very well. That's the problem. This isn't a big issue in most games over TCP since they don't have twitch style play. Other twitch games run over UDP and can work with pack loss easier.

FFXIV end game is 50% twitch, but their protocol is not designed for that.

On top of that, it's their responsibility to ensure that their protocol and system are not getting throttle by any mid tier circuits, or major backbones.

Otherwise, they will just lose the subscribers that are being affected by this. Maybe they are fine with that.

[Sax]

Large proportion... based on what? A few hundred people posting on the forums? Compared the hundreds of thousands playing the game?

You're applying an availability heuristic like a boss. Because it does not happen to you or some people in your FC, everyone is obviously over exaggerating the problem. I am not saying a majority. I am not saying a certain percent. I am saying, based on the number of posts and reported incidents on the forum, there is a large body of people experiencing this problem. You do NOT know that thousands of people playing do not experience this. What you know, is that you don't, the people in your FC don't, and you know that there are a handful of people who have posted on these forums saying that they don't have a problem don't. You can not speak for everyone playing, but we can speak for every single person that has posted about this issue, and they out number those who have posted they do not.

EDIT: Also, you keep comparing the number of posts here to the entire 14 player base, which really says nothing at all. Try comparing the number of active posters with problems versus those that don't. Not the number of posters with a problem versus the entire player base. IF the OF forum is an accurate representation of the entire player base (which it probably isn't - most people avoid it because of the sheer amounts of stupid that plague it), you could infer the actual percentage of the player base that are experiencing connectivity/lag issues.

[whilke]

Which means you're assuming there are considerably more people with lag issues that those that have posted on the forums. Where are they?

I'm haven't been assuming anything, I'm just pointing out the the information we do know, which is that the people with lag problems are in the extreme minority. If there are considerably more people with lag problems, where are they if they're not posting on the official forums?

It's not like these forums are a secret, especially since a lot of the responses SE email/phone support seems to give people is to post their problems on the forums.

The official "Feedback/suggestions" link is also direct to the forums too:

http://support.eu.square-enix.com/co...383&la=2&fty=3

That's a pretty good strawman you got there. It's pretty easy to assume that the forums in general are a vast minority of the general player population. Most players just play the game (problems or not), and never go further.

Can you at least agree that the currently most reported issue on the forums right now is lag/network connection related (and by a pretty decent margin)? If not, what do you think is the hot support issue right?

If you can agree it's the hottest issue reported by paying customers, can you agree that it's probably something SE should prioritize in trying to resolve? it also wouldn't hurt to have some type of communications to their customer base about hot issues they are looking at.

Unless of course you really believe that everyone is lying about this problem, or you somehow think it's user error.