XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Gamemako]

Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps

...so you're averaging 190DPS with Bloodbath up? Hmm. If you're like Kunkka and rolling in 420 strength and a relic+1, you should expect about 1.672 damage per potency if you keep SE up all the time. If you're alternating SE/BB for max damage output (technically can drop in Fracture, but we'll ignore it for now), you expect an average of 206.67 potency per GCD. This is 345.6 damage per GCD, or 138.2 DPS. Then you add in Defiance, and you're at 103.7 DPS. Now, there's Fracture and there's Inner Beast, but they are not pushing your DPS up by 83%. Even perfect overlap of Berserk would only get you around 26% more heal, leaving you to make up the other 45%. You have no Wrath, so no Unchained for you.

Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps

4.5 per minute is not possible. I already addressed that. I can thoroughly debunk it by developing a clear plan on how you'll run out of cooldowns to do 4 per minute. You have less than one GCD leeway for that, and after about 2 minutes, even that breaks -- your CDs aren't ready for Wrath gen in time. Realistically, you'll get more like 3-3.5 IB per minute, and if you account for overheal, the picture gets that much uglier.

Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps

Mutually exclusive with IB and Bloodbath. You need SE for damage on both of those. Count this one as a flat zero, because you're not using it. (It would be negligible anyway, but seriously, not happening.)

Edit again: Oh and before anyone screams "Aaaaargh keep wrath stacks at 5 at all times for extra healzzzz!" that will restrict you to only 2 IB's a minute. Dropping your average IB to 1200~ and hps from IB to this:

Actually, this is also not correct. At 2 IBs per 75s and 13.4% average Wrath bonus (assume 15s of 7% average as per previous reasoning -- drop a CD somewhere in there to get to 5 after 2 combos, then sit on Wrath, Infuriate for the second IB), you'd actually outperform perfect IB spam at the upper limits of damage (1200+ opponent DPS). Compared to a realistic case (3 IB/min, 9% average wrath, 20% overheal), you'd outperform IB spam for anything over 500 DPS. Your ideal efficiency at higher damage rates is actually to use IB only when you have Infuriate, but that is typically unreasonable.

It's funny, actually, that even the people talking about how bad WAR is will overestimate the power of WAR's abilities.

[Hundred]

Storm path heals for nothing whats the point of math on it?
Heals for nothing the moment you get it.
You'll hit a storm path once, butchers block probably twice or throw in a storm eye. It'll probably be 18-2x something seconds before your next storm path .
Calculate Storm path like this: ((280/2)/7.5) multiplied by Nothing = 0.
If end-game Wars have ~7.5k health, how much is 140 health? 1-2%. You need a microscope to see storm path move your health bar.

[Gamemako]

What world are you living in? These are stated to be grosely innacurate and what everyone claims that war can do. I say MULTIPLE times they are generous numbers and higher than actually possible. Each is the PERFECT WORLD settings everyone goes on about and even then THEY STILL DON'T work so well!

I think it is best to approach real-world perfect and realistic cases. Looking at higher-than-possible numbers is not really useful. Simply state what is the true maximum and why it is the true maximum, as I did with Inner Beast and 4 uses per minute.

Hmm the 10% extra damage from Eye lasts 15 seconds assuming you pop that each time you IB and bloodbath that's (with these best and overrated numbers) 1.15 hps from Bloodbath and 11.2 from your inner beasts.

I will have to disagree, and here's why. When not in Bloodbath, you will recover 900 potency per Inner Beast. Storm's Eye will increase this by 100 potency. Storm's Path recovers 125 base potency, but is reduced by Defiance. Therefore, it actually recovers 93.75 potency. As long as SE/SP is used in a 1:1 ratio with Inner Beast, then it is smarter to use Storm's Eye regardless of whether you are in Bloodbath. You could theoretically use a SE/SP/IB rotation, but that is not possible while tanking -- you will lose always lose aggro without Butcher's Block. That rotation is therefore not worth considering.

[Halfmind]

I will have to disagree, and here's why. When not in Bloodbath, you will recover 900 potency per Inner Beast. Storm's Eye will increase this by 100 potency. Storm's Path recovers 125 base potency, but is reduced by Defiance. Therefore, it actually recovers 93.75 potency. As long as SE/SP is used in a 1:1 ratio with Inner Beast, then it is smarter to use Storm's Eye regardless of whether you are in Bloodbath. You could theoretically use a SE/SP/IB rotation, but that is not possible while tanking -- you will lose always lose aggro without Butcher's Block. That rotation is therefore not worth considering.

That's going to depend on the encounter. In fights where your DPS is not on your target, you can fairly easily dominate the threat on it, giving you some breathing room for rotations. I'm still not a huge fan of the rotation, either, and I don't see it making high-damage encounters much more survivable at the moment.

[Gamemako]

No it's 10%. 10% of 900 is 90. and that is in a one shot not in hps.

Storm's Eye does not increase damage by 10%, it decreases enemy resistance by 10%, which effectively increases damage by 11.1111% (1/0.9 = 1.1111111). Because the two are used at the same rate in your normal rotation, the absolute potency of each is representative of their rates. The place it would not be representative is in the Infuriate use of IB, where Storm's Eye increases its lead. It is not necessary to even consider this, however, because Storm's Eye is a superior choice without it.

In general, you assumed quite a bit more heal from SP than occurs. You assumed a use of SP per 7.5 seconds, which is not possible to begin with, or there would be no use of Inner Beast at all. You then overestimated damage per shot, just adding to the issue. In a rotation, you will get 3 uses of Storm's Path per minute, each of which will heal a meager 93.75 potency. After Maim, you'll hit about 438.75 HP per minute, or 7.3125 HP per second.

You would only consider Storm's Path at all in conjunction with Storm's Eye as part of a single-opponent minimal-heal situation, like...

That's going to depend on the encounter. In fights where your DPS is not on your target, you can fairly easily dominate the threat on it, giving you some breathing room for rotations. I'm still not a huge fan of the rotation, either, and I don't see it making high-damage encounters much more survivable at the moment.

Ah yes, I concede that you are correct. If you're facing one opponent with minimal heals, then you could keep enmity and drain maximum health by replacing Butcher's Block with Storm's Path. Multiple opponents would make it difficult -- any heals at all would test the limits of your enmity. Then again, in the situations where you'd be dumping Inner Beast ASAP, that's probably top among them.

[Taemek]

The ONLY way war will get 1k heals per sec is if you take a sample of 5 seconds where you pop cooldowns.

You are completely using the term hps wrong. How on earth do you get 1000 hps..... Thrill of battle is possibly the biggest healer (outside of a crit hit IB with all cd's) and thats a 120 sec cd. So that alone (assuming a 1.5k insta heal from it) is only 12.5 heals per sec.......(1500/120 (heal ammount divided by recast) Where exactly are you getting the other 987.5hps from?

Still waiting on you posting your alt btw.

Edit: I just know I'm gonan have to explain how to work out hps more to Taemek so some more examples with rough numbers from my warrior (almost full dl and +1 bravura).

Thrill of battle: Roughly 1.5k heal, recast 120s
1500/120=12.5 12.5hps
Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps
Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps
Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps

There are all your self hps ability averages at 50. 12.5+15.83+112.5+18.67=159.5

Assuming you get the perfect roation 159.5 hps is what you'll get with these numbers. So your claim of 1000 hps is WAY WAY off. Unless you're IB hits for 6k heals everytime..... lol!

Ok, now thats out of the way, your problem here is simply being able to tell the terminological difference between burst and consistency.

Again for clarification, YES I AGREE WITH CASPERS FINDINGS PRIOR, AS I POINTED OUT TO YOU but you seem to feel the need to voice it again and again like you think you know something that I don't which I already have agreed upon..../boggled. Yes, again, I understand its value when measured to represent mitgation OR eHPS. No I don't have to do any math or present you with numbers because your healing numbers already have proven that yes, *burst* HPS is 1k hps at which point if you were to imagine a trend graph, it would look like an ice pick where the period of a 2 second window it would *peak* to around 1k hps and drop back to what I am pretty sure we all agree on which is, around 160 - 180 eHPS.

You are simply looking at it from a consistency measurement where I am pointing out the significant value of it measured in a burst measurement where you do *spike* above 1k hps where it matters most, the rest I am sick of explaining because you have proven my point on the reading comprehension ability.

Key words here:
Burst
Spike
Peak

You guys are starting to cloud your own thoughts and judgements with too much math. It is getting in your way of simple english comprehension, unless of course, I am not explaining myself correctly, which I am pretty sure I am when I read back over my posts.

TLDR; Clarification, I agree with your findings just as I agreed with Caspers, 3 pages back....../facepalm.

On a final note, for the love of god, chill out man. I am not here to because I like the sound of my own eyes. I am simply pointing out that there is no consistant way to measure a value when there is many varibles in how the value is used or can be used. When you read a post from someone, read and consider the terminology being used before knee jerk responding. Try to think of the ways people are implying the value is being used or measured in a real world sceanrio. When people use terms like spike or burst, it is pretty clear that they are not refering to a consistant value of measurement.

[Terabyt3]

Then use the correct terms taemek. You can't use healpersec for spike healing when we're talking about warrior mitigation which requires you to look at avg. hps.
Measuring in hps takes into account your dps, avg. IB and so. yes it will spike but then so will a PLD's mitigation. To compare the two you need to put them on an equal playing field.

How much, on average, will a PLD mitigate per second. How much on average wil a WAR mitigate per second. Hence hps. Spiking of 1k is irrelevent that's what the bigger hp pool is for to allow a war to take a hit then recover. Reactive tank. How much is mitigated over the course of a fight compared to PLD is what was the question.

I hate to keep going on at this but you've been asked 4-5 times now to post your alt character you said is 50 WAR.

Game: I'm curious how many maim's do you keep up in a minute? I only keep up 2 currently (as it lasts 30 secs). At work right now but what's the difference between 2 Eye's and 2 Paths?

I got it as 249.3 with 2 Eyes (assuming 120 dps throughout bloodbath and 2 ib's with Eye active)

And only 237.5 for Path.

So with only 2 maim combos per minute (which is what I currently do) eye seems more effective......But you have to factor in Bloodbaths horrid 90 seconds cd. I think Path pull ahead once you stick that in the mix. Albeit only marginally.

Over 3 minutes Path gives you 712.5 For using 3 abilities.
Over 3 minutes Eye gives you 697.95 For upkeeping Eye during 6 IB's and 2 Bloodbaths over 3 minutes. (You're likely to get more IB's in though but only interested in ones during Eye).

It's a lot more upkeep for slightly worse healing it seems.

[Gamemako]

It heals for more than that. Potency 250-5% (Defiance - 25% Maim +20%) So 118.75 potency healed?

I was not including Maim in the potency listing because it is added to all equally (20% multiplier). However, it was included in the estimate of total drain.

Defiance is a multiplier, not additive with Maim. You made the same error with Storm's Eye in Butcher's Block: it multiplies damage by an effective 1.1111, not adds 11.11% of base. Additionally, you left out the conversion from potency to damage in your SP calculation -- at the equipment range we're discussing, you should expect to the tune of 1.3 damage per potency after crit adjustment.

If you use 3 IB's and 1/2 a bloodbath (because storms eye only lasts for half bb duration) with 11% increase you'd get the following benefit:

Already pointed out the error in SE stacking method here. Additionally, you will not stop using Storm's Eye -- unlike most debuffs, enemies do not gain resistance to the vulnerability debuffs (Disembowel, Storm's Eye, Dragon Kick). You will continue to have Storm's Eye up for the duration of Bloodbath (and everything else).

You would be right that Bloodbath isn't a large portion. Over Bloodbath, assuming nothing but SE/BB alternating combos (no IB or Fracture, which means your DPS and drain are actually a little bit higher), you should expect 2480 base potency over 30 seconds, or 620 base healing from BB. After adjusting for Maim (1.2 multiplier) and Defiance (0.75 multiplier), Storm's Eye adds 62 potency in healing over the duration, which is a meager 80.6 health drain @ 1.3 crit-adjusted damage per potency. Like Inner Release, adjusting for this is less than 1HP/s time-weighted.

To get the eye healing over a minute you must maintain 120dps, get 3 IB's in every minute, ensure Eye is active for bloodbath and every IB (which wouldnt be the case as you'd only use a maim combo twice in one minute).

As I showed in my previous math, your DPS doesn't have anything to do with it. You will use SP/SE in a 1:1 ratio with Inner Beast in this setup (neglect Infuriate use and Bloodbath, which obviously favor Storm's Eye), which means that you can just compare raw potencies. Independent of damage concerns, Storm's Eye increases healing from Inner Beast (100 additional potency healed per use) more than Storm's Path (93.75 potency healed per use) heals.

Game: I'm curious how many maim's do you keep up in a minute? I only keep up 2 currently (as it lasts 30 secs). At work right now but what's the difference between 2 Eye's and 2 Paths?

As above, it doesn't matter how many you use as long as each use of Storm's Eye contributes to at least one Inner Beast on average.

[Judge_Xero]

I updated my OP on complete STR build. I didn't have enough deviance on my damage numbers which led to quite an exaggeration on damage output. Thanks everyone for pointing out my errors. It wasn't meant to be a "Warrior is just fine post" but more of a, which direction can we look in if the Devs say it's ok.

Any thoughts on skill speed? Would faster Wraths stacks make a big difference. I haven't seen any updates on skill speed since the game went live. P3 it was pretty laughable.

[Gamemako]

I updated my OP on complete STR build... Any thoughts on skill speed? Would faster Wraths stacks make a big difference. I haven't seen any updates on skill speed since the game went live. P3 it was pretty laughable.

Last I checked, you could still stack the heck out of skill speed and still not hit a 0.1s reduction. If throwing all your points at it don't give you even 4%, it's probably not worth trying.

Care to post your math on Bloodbath? I think you're still overestimating it a bit. If you're just using SE/BB (lags a bit behind, but not much), you should expect 2480 potency over 30 seconds. This is 620 potency healed. Maim, Storm's Eye, and Defiance are a net zero effect (1.2*0.75/0.9=1). At 1.3 damage per potency, that should be about 806 healed, which is just under 9 per second over the 90 second cooldown. Your estimate is still twice this. Why?