XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Terabyt3]

Even if results aren't entirley accurate it might finally get into some peoples head that WAR's static mitigation doesn not run well in BC + Titan compared to PLD scaling mitigation.

I love my WAR. First job to 50. Most fun to play. Love the aesthetics and the idea of reactive tanking.

But anyone with an "onze" of common sense can see that once incoming dps becomes high enough % mitigation will overtake static any day.

It's not a question of "Can it be done" but a question of what is most effective. For BC currently it's PLD. Hands down.

[Tronic]

Even if results aren't entirley accurate it might finally get into some peoples head that WAR's static mitigation doesn not run well in BC + Titan compared to PLD scaling mitigation.

I love my WAR. First job to 50. Most fun to play. Love the aesthetics and the idea of reactive tanking.

But anyone with an "onze" of common sense can see that once incoming dps becomes high enough % mitigation will overtake static any day.

It's not a question of "Can it be done" but a question of what is most effective. For BC currently it's PLD. Hands down.

So sad, but so true. I'm levelling my pld and switching to him as my main when he hits 50. I even have a garuda sword ready.

[wonka11]

So sad, but so true. I'm levelling my pld and switching to him as my main when he hits 50. I even have a garuda sword ready.

Disagree. By the time damage hits those numbers, regardless of Paladins mitigation, both will be dead due to the sheer amount of damage incoming as the Paladin's health pool does not compensate.

If there is ever a point that a Warrior is being one or two shotted by a monster, it will be the exact same for the Paladin.

The real questions are, despite all the terrible math going on in every thread:

1. What will both classes look like stat wise after Crystal Tower comes out.

2. What stats are actually useful and how Warrior damage / health mechanic will scale.


If you hear anything else in here, its just by people attempting to sound important using over simplified math with no hard evidence or statistical data to prove it.

Inb4paladin'pro's
Inb4warriorssuck
Inb4badhealerscomplainingaboutwarriors

[PessimiStick]

Disagree. By the time damage hits those numbers, regardless of Paladins mitigation, both will be dead due to the sheer amount of damage incoming as the Paladin's health pool does not compensate.

If there is ever a point that a Warrior is being one or two shotted by a monster, it will be the exact same for the Paladin.

Except that the Paladin has vastly superior cooldowns, and takes less healing to get back to full, meaning it's much more likely he will survive than the Warrior. They both have the exact same EHP (well minus the super-minuscule HP difference in the classes, ~85) under passive conditions.

The real questions are, despite all the terrible math going on in every thread:

1. What will both classes look like stat wise after Crystal Tower comes out.

Regardless of the answer, PLD will still be better, so I'm not sure how this is a "real" question.

and how Warrior damage / health mechanic will scale.

Not enough to match PLD's scaling, since they scale with incoming damage.

If you hear anything else in here, its just by people attempting to sound important using over simplified math with no hard evidence or statistical data to prove it.

Math doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you right.

[wonka11]

Math doesn't make you sound important, it just makes you right.

Unless its done wrong, which it is, has been, and continues to be on these forums - especially since we don't know how stats exactly work.

Again disputable. I think people have taken a popular opinion with only theory crafting and poor numbers supporting it (including miscalculations of how stats worked) and then expected something totally different.
I say give it some time, I'm going to bet Warrior does just as fine as Paladin after they both get geared, and good Warriors already hold their own pretty damn well.
The only thing people are bitching on is that they cant take two dreads, which again, is temporary, and for the fact that we're missing a whole gap range of gear and then trying to base an assumption on a class that requires the top level gear to reach what is considered an exponential efficiency/potential, I think it was way too early to make such a blunt assumption.

[coffeepotz]

This thread is disappointing, as now I pretty much should roll Pld, despite liking the look of war more...

[Terabyt3]

Taemek you're just as bad on this thread as the last!

You're saying measuring in self heals per second is inaccurate and it's all about timing???

If you measure in self heals per second you are actually making warrior look better as you don't take into account overhealing yourself. An average is the ONLY way to compare WAR's main form of mitigation (self healing... not avoidance that you kept stating elsewhere lol) to pld's passive mitigation + cd suite.



PLD's total mitigation is somewhere in the region of 20% of total damage (incluing all cooldowns over that period.) Once DPS is higher than WARs self heal per second x 5~ A PLD is better. (Probably even less due to overheal, skill timing and the fact that because it;s not passive you can be stunned and paralyzed etc whereas pld is passive.

Deny it all you want but there it is clear as day without numbers. Once you are in that scenario you're screwed. And because that's a best case scenario chance are you'll be screwed before that!

[Taemek]

Taemek you're just as bad on this thread as the last!

You're saying measuring in self heals per second is inaccurate and it's all about timing???

If you measure in self heals per second you are actually making warrior look better as you don't take into account overhealing yourself. An average is the ONLY way to compare WAR's main form of mitigation (self healing... not avoidance that you kept stating elsewhere lol) to pld's passive mitigation + cd suite.



PLD's total mitigation is somewhere in the region of 20% of total damage (incluing all cooldowns over that period.) Once DPS is higher than WARs self heal per second x 5~ A PLD is better. (Probably even less due to overheal, skill timing and the fact that because it;s not passive you can be stunned and paralyzed etc whereas pld is passive.

Deny it all you want but there it is clear as day without numbers. Once you are in that scenario you're screwed. And because that's a best case scenario chance are you'll be screwed before that!

No thats not what I was saying at all, not even remotely close. Never, ever, anywhere did I say it was inaccurate at all, I agreed with the findings, however I do not think it is fair to measure the *usefulness* of the abilities when utilized correctly. As I said, Warrior self heals is burst healing and as such can and does spike at 1k+ HPS for a few seconds, so when situationally measured they are more powerful then eHPS, when measured to determine thier mitigation value we use eHPS but they appear weak which is why most people think they are not worth using.

In other words, people don't fully understand the importance of Warrior healing and most think its crap and they don't use it based on that premise and they rely on healers to pick up the slack.

I am however, starting to question your reading comprehension ability, not sure how you missed the whole sentence where I stated, I wasn't disagreeing with the findings, which just so happened to be at the very beginning of the post to save this sort of misunderstanding.

[Terabyt3]

No thats not what I was saying at all, not even remotely close. Never, ever, anywhere did I say it was inaccurate at all, I agreed with the findings, however I do not think it is fair to measure the *usefulness* of the abilities when utilized correctly. As I said, Warrior self heals is burst healing and as such can and does spike at 1k+ HPS for a few seconds, so when situationally measured they are more powerful then eHPS, when measured to determine thier mitigation value we use eHPS but they appear weak which is why most people think they are not worth using.

In other words, people don't fully understand the importance of Warrior healing and most think its crap and they don't use it based on that premise and they rely on healers to pick up the slack.

I am however, starting to question your reading comprehension ability, not sure how you missed the whole sentence where I stated, I wasn't disagreeing with the findings, which just so happened to be at the very beginning of the post to save this sort of misunderstanding.

The ONLY way war will get 1k heals per sec is if you take a sample of 5 seconds where you pop cooldowns.

You are completely using the term hps wrong. How on earth do you get 1000 hps..... Thrill of battle is possibly the biggest healer (outside of a crit hit IB with all cd's) and thats a 120 sec cd. So that alone (assuming a 1.5k insta heal from it) is only 12.5 heals per sec.......(1500/120 (heal ammount divided by recast) Where exactly are you getting the other 987.5hps from?

Still waiting on you posting your alt btw.

Edit: I just know I'm gonan have to explain how to work out hps more to Taemek so some more examples with rough numbers from my warrior (almost full dl and +1 bravura).

Thrill of battle: Roughly 1.5k heal, recast 120s
1500/120=12.5 12.5hps
Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps
Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps
Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps

There are all your self hps ability averages at 50. 12.5+15.83+112.5+18.67=159.5

Assuming you get the perfect roation 159.5 hps is what you'll get with these numbers. So your claim of 1000 hps is WAY WAY off. Unless you're IB hits for 6k heals everytime..... lol!

Edit again: Oh and before anyone screams "Aaaaargh keep wrath stacks at 5 at all times for extra healzzzz!" that will restrict you to only 2 IB's a minute. Dropping your average IB to 1200~ and hps from IB to this:

(1200x2)/60=40 You've just lowered your self healing WARs main form of mitigation by 72.5 hps

Assumig you ALWAYS have 15% extra heals (which you don't because of ramp up time) You need to be recieving 483.33 external healing EVERY SECOND! To make up for not using IB.

Whereas Using IB everytime you Have the opportunity (as example above 4.5 times a minute. You will still average at 7.5% extra healing AND the 112.5 hps from IB.

Holding wrath is trying to play WAR like a PLD. It does not compute.

In conclusion: You should blow IB as often as you can it's your best form of mitigation. With these numbers I mitigate around 160dps incoming.

When a PLD (roughly 20% mitigation on average of incoming dps) is fight something that is doing more than 800~dps with same set up they become more effective.

Anyone that's been to coil will know around 3 stacks snake will be above 800 incoming dps.

I rest my case.

...so you're averaging 190DPS with Bloodbath up?
It's funny, actually, that even the people talking about how bad WAR is will overestimate the power of WAR's abilities.

What world are you living in? These are stated to be grosely innacurate and what everyone claims that war can do. I say MULTIPLE times they are generous numbers and higher than actually possible. Each is the PERFECT WORLD settings everyone goes on about and even then THEY STILL DON'T work so well!

Storm path heals for nothing whats the point of math on it?
Heals for nothing the moment you get it.
You'll hit a storm path once, butchers block probably twice or throw in a storm eye. It'll probably be 18-2x something seconds before your next storm path .
Calculate Storm path like this: ((280/2)/7.5) multiplied by Nothing = 0.
If end-game Wars have ~7.5k health, how much is 140 health? 1-2%. You need a microscope to see storm path move your health bar.

Mutually exclusive with IB and Bloodbath. You need SE for damage on both of those. Count this one as a flat zero, because you're not using it. (It would be negligible anyway, but seriously, not happening.)

Hmm the 10% extra damage from Eye lasts 15 seconds assuming you pop that each time you IB and bloodbath that's (with these best and overrated numbers) 1.15 hps from Bloodbath and 11.2 from your inner beasts.

And that's from a seriously over estimated IB (how many you can get in a minute) AND over estimated bloodbath.

With Path However at a potency of 250. you'll can hit 220-280 no crit. Top end that's better hps than Eye grants you when it is conjoined with Bloodbath or IB.

It's a pitiful ammount but grants a bigger hps than Eye does.

With bloated IB, Bloodbath and eye active for 10% 12.35 (That's generous numbers!)
With Path instead of Eye that's 18~hps.

10% of small number are small numbers.

I will have to disagree, and here's why. When not in Bloodbath, you will recover 900 potency per Inner Beast. Storm's Eye will increase this by 100 potency. Storm's Path recovers 125 base potency, but is reduced by Defiance. Therefore, it actually recovers 93.75 potency. As long as SE/SP is used in a 1:1 ratio with Inner Beast, then it is smarter to use Storm's Eye regardless of whether you are in Bloodbath. You could theoretically use a SE/SP/IB rotation, but that is not possible while tanking -- you will lose always lose aggro without Butcher's Block. That rotation is therefore not worth considering.

No it's 10%. 10% of 900 is 90. and that is in a one shot not in hps.

work out the average hps of IB (Bloated up there is 112~ish). If the extra 10% of that and 5% of bloodbath (because eye buff is half of bloodbaths time) total to less than Storms Path hps then storms path is more effective to hps than using Eye.

Use Eye if you need extra aggro, dps rush phase or at full health. otehrwise use path, you'll get better hps than using eye combined with other self heals.

Storm's Eye does not increase damage by 10%, it decreases enemy resistance by 10%, which effectively increases damage by 11.1111% (1/0.9 = 1.1111111). Because the two are used at the same rate in your normal rotation, the absolute potency of each is representative of their rates. The place it would not be representative is in the Infuriate use of IB, where Storm's Eye increases its lead. It is not necessary to even consider this, however, because Storm's Eye is a superior choice without it.

In general, you assumed quite a bit more heal from SP than occurs. You assumed a use of SP per 7.5 seconds, which is not possible to begin with, or there would be no use of Inner Beast at all. You then overestimated damage per shot, just adding to the issue. In a rotation, you will get 3 uses of Storm's Path per minute, each of which will heal a meager 93.75 potency. After Maim, you'll hit about 438.75 HP per minute, or 7.3125 HP per second.

It heals for more than that. Potency 250-5% (Defiance - 25% Maim +20%) So 118.75 potency healed?
Assuming 3 per minute that's 356.25 hp potency recovered in that minute by using Path instead of Eye

If you use 3 IB's and 1/2 a bloodbath (because storms eye only lasts for half bb duration) with 11% increase you'd get the following benefit:

IB's hit for 300+20%+11.1% so 399.9 potency and healing for that x3 = 1199.7 potency of healing. Over a minute 3599.1 healing over a minute - but we're only interested in that extra 11.1% damage.
299.7 healing is granted by that 11.1%

With bloodbath thrown in the mix that 11.1% increase will be 11.1% of (dps/4) THEN halfed thanks to the debuffs short duration.
Around 120 is realsitic with IB and Fracture included do you think?
So that means the 11.1% bonus grants us a measely 49.95 extra healing
11.1% of (dps/4) multiplied by 15 (max seconds available in that minute gets worse as recast is 90secs for bb)



Together that's 349.65 potency in a minute using storm's Eye each time you use bloodbath and IB.
Whereas 356.25 from just using 3 Path's instead.

Admittedly the difference is minimal at first but take into account keeping Eye up each time you use bloodbath and IB and a higher than average dps there in the example and BB is on a 90 second recast puts path even further in front for hps.

999 over 3 minutes with Eye
1068.75 over 3 minutes with Path

To get the eye healing over a minute you must maintain 120dps, get 3 IB's in every minute, ensure Eye is active for bloodbath and every IB (which wouldnt be the case as you'd only use a maim combo twice in one minute).

Whereas with the Path you only have to land 3 paths in a minute

Much less upkeep for more heals.
(I'm not arguing btw I genuinely like talking about this crap )

[Gamemako]

Bloodbath: 25% of dps for 30 seconds every 90 secs. Assuming Dps of 190 let's say using zerk and other things for average dps....
((190/4)x30)/90=15.83333 15.83333hps

...so you're averaging 190DPS with Bloodbath up? Hmm. If you're like Kunkka and rolling in 420 strength and a relic+1, you should expect about 1.672 damage per potency if you keep SE up all the time. If you're alternating SE/BB for max damage output (technically can drop in Fracture, but we'll ignore it for now), you expect an average of 206.67 potency per GCD. This is 345.6 damage per GCD, or 138.2 DPS. Then you add in Defiance, and you're at 103.7 DPS. Now, there's Fracture and there's Inner Beast, but they are not pushing your DPS up by 83%. Even perfect overlap of Berserk would only get you around 26% more heal, leaving you to make up the other 45%. You have no Wrath, so no Unchained for you.

Inner Beast: Assuming that the average Ib heals for 1.5k (countin crits and non crits) you can do a maximum of 4.5 inner beasts per minute on average.
(1500x4.5)/60=112.5 112.5hps

4.5 per minute is not possible. I already addressed that. I can thoroughly debunk it by developing a clear plan on how you'll run out of cooldowns to do 4 per minute. You have less than one GCD leeway for that, and after about 2 minutes, even that breaks -- your CDs aren't ready for Wrath gen in time. Realistically, you'll get more like 3-3.5 IB per minute, and if you account for overheal, the picture gets that much uglier.

Storm's Path: Average hit is around the 280 mark let's say. Heals for 50% and takes 7.5secs to get taht combo out.
(280/2)/7.5 = 18.67 18.67hps

Mutually exclusive with IB and Bloodbath. You need SE for damage on both of those. Count this one as a flat zero, because you're not using it. (It would be negligible anyway, but seriously, not happening.)

Edit again: Oh and before anyone screams "Aaaaargh keep wrath stacks at 5 at all times for extra healzzzz!" that will restrict you to only 2 IB's a minute. Dropping your average IB to 1200~ and hps from IB to this:

Actually, this is also not correct. At 2 IBs per 75s and 13.4% average Wrath bonus (assume 15s of 7% average as per previous reasoning -- drop a CD somewhere in there to get to 5 after 2 combos, then sit on Wrath, Infuriate for the second IB), you'd actually outperform perfect IB spam at the upper limits of damage (1200+ opponent DPS). Compared to a realistic case (3 IB/min, 9% average wrath, 20% overheal), you'd outperform IB spam for anything over 500 DPS. Your ideal efficiency at higher damage rates is actually to use IB only when you have Infuriate, but that is typically unreasonable.

It's funny, actually, that even the people talking about how bad WAR is will overestimate the power of WAR's abilities.