XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Derza]

That's not how it works. With enough dedication (farm and stuff) you can get both. WAR need crafted DPS accessories overmelded more than any other job.
I agree that this whole thing in itself is a huge hit in our face but I had to make this point.

Yea but that is only to get very slight gains in tanking - it does not make it so you can compete with a normally geared paladin.

[Dhex]

Wanna play Warrior?

Buy crafted gear - overmeld it - perfect your rotations for every possible situation, and then live with the fact that a Paladin can do just as well, if not better than you, without all the extra effort.

[Kaalan]

Yea but that is only get get very slight gains in tanking - it does not make it so you can compete with a normally geared paladin.

=>

Wanna play Warrior?

Buy crafted gear - overmeld it - perfect your rotations for every possible situation, and then live with the fact that a Paladin can do just as well, if not better than you, without all the extra effort.

That's what I meant. It's not normal than a full ilvl 90 WAR with HQ crafted acc fully melded would still be inferior compared to a PLD that just farmed a full DL set in like, one week and a half, but that's how it is currently and the sooner you make peace with that, the sooner you will get there.
And if some sort of miracle happens and YoshiP decide to give us some love, if you already farmed all that gear, you're going to laugh at those DL PLD.

[HiirNoivl]

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging.

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

Ain't nobody I play with poking at my clothes. Though I carefully consider my options and make adjustments based on encounters, bring food and potions and stuff, you know... like an endgame player who actually monitors her play and takes care of things. I don't view this as "extra" effort. But I love the job. I've played Coil as PLD. I didn't like it to be honest, but I was willing to do it. I didn't see the huge advantage of PLD over WAR. I can see some situations where PLD could be better, but I could see some situations were WAR could be better too. I think the "WAR inferiority complex" has gone on long enough. If I hit a wall at Coil 4 (I'm expecting 0 trouble at Coil 3) I'll get back to you.

Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want.

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a female player playing based on emotions and not logic. (I kid - you could very well be an emotional driven male!).

Uh oh... sexism card was played. Now who's out of an argument?

Guys I don't know how to say it any way other then just stop responding to Hiir and Lhun. They don't understand math, have not killed anything of note and are the PRIME example of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect .

The fact that they keep arguing stating Str over Vit and that crit is important should give you all the info you need about them.

I don't argue STR over VIT, nor do I argue VIT over STR. It's not hard to understand.

As to Hiir's actual comment, I think he's confusing the desire for things not to change with the desire for optimal performance. Anyone that you run with that is emotionally invested in you (i.e. friends with you) isn't going to recommend you play a class that you don't want to play (which, regardless of what you said, Hiir, you're pretty obviously not enthused by the idea of playing a PLD instead of a WAR). The answer you're getting has nothing to do with the comparative level of performance between the two classes and more to do with the fact that your friends don't want to offend you or make you feel bad by effectively requiring you to bring a class that you don't like.

I don't see where a change is even necessary. The people who desire the change, I don't believe are playing the class correctly.

As for my "friends"... I barely know them. We get along just fine. It's not just me being a WAR that's not "optimal", our party was not "Optimal" (one BRD, one BLM, lots of melee, Two healers). If they didn't want suggest I play PLD to avoid hurting my feelings, what about everyone else?

Maybe they're just not your typical close minded, one-set-up-onry typical endgame folks who couldn't think out of the box if you drew them a diagram and wrote step by step instructions.

[Derza]

Oh please. It is not that hard. Most of my stuff ain't even melded. Ya'll need to quit whinging

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

[Kitru]

What makes you assume that you are the "optimal" warrior tank and we are looking to be like you? The numbers you provided from your build still make you sub-par to a paladin tank with lesser gear...

Hubris and delusion, plus a sprinkling of repression.

[Derza]

...

Once again the issue is not that it is impossible to do some of coil with a warrior tank... it is the fact that doing it with a warrior tank takes more healing. You are delusional if you think by going in as a warrior you are some how helping the party out. Sure you might not do as well playing a paladin as you do playing a warrior - But a well played PLD will perform better than a well played Warrior every time in any encounter where the incoming dps is over 400ish.

[Derza]

I ask: "Do you want me to switch to PLD? I can if you guys want." The answer was a resounding "No."

So what can I say? Just giving people what they want.

Hard to have an intelligent argument with you. You bring no proof no logical explanations, no facts, no calculations - starting to think you are a player that plays based on emotions and not logic.

[Kitru]

(Not trying to offend - just my observations).

Personally, I find that incredibly offensive, mainly because it operates under the supposition that women are slaves to their emotions whereas men are purely logical and in control. Even if you want to discuss gender differences from a psychological standpoint, women are only slightly more prone to instinctive and emotion reaction than men are, but factors like race, age, and occupation/education/field of expertise play a *much* larger role than gender does.

As to Hiir's actual comment, I think he's confusing the desire for things not to change with the desire for optimal performance. Anyone that you run with that is emotionally invested in you (i.e. friends with you) isn't going to recommend you play a class that you don't want to play (which, regardless of what you said, Hiir, you're pretty obviously not enthused by the idea of playing a PLD instead of a WAR). The answer you're getting has nothing to do with the comparative level of performance between the two classes and more to do with the fact that your friends don't want to offend you or make you feel bad by effectively requiring you to bring a class that you don't like.

[Dhex]

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I agree with Kitru. That was offensive Derz... whether you were trying to be or not.


Hiir's experiences are valid to Hiir - but those experiences are frequently counter to the mathematical and factual data that people observe/test/postulate; and that's fine. Personally I think Hiir benefits from having highly supportive friends that play their classes exceptionally well. Work wise - Hiir has Darksteel body gear with all slots melded, and 3 or 4 overmelds, a Relic +1, and several other pieces of Darklight/Hero equipment on her Warrior; she's done her best to figure out what works for her.

Her Warrior is her preference - despite the fact that Paladin has simpler core mechanics, more utility, and survival capability - no there is no parse/information/calculation or demonstration of an instance where Warrior is equal or superior to support her argument - information coming from Hiir isn't tested in a controlled environment and thus unverifiable. In a debate where we're discussing fundamental core flaws Hiir's input is often nothing more than pedantic. I'm on the same server as them - they're a very nice person but not really interested in changing\improving\discussing the core mechanics of Warrior.