XIV WAR Tanking - Baseline Mitigation and PLD comparison

[Hachiko]

In the hands of a skilled player, I hope you understand that Warrior will come out on top.

I'm pretty sure I showed why mathematically that is not possible in a raid environment.

There is no reason to take Parry into account because Parry is a constant across both PLD and WAR, and further Parry mitigation isn't even remotely 15%, it's a 15% chance to reduce dmg by 23-26%.

Second point, there's no point in adding in cooldowns the the calculus on WAR without adding them for the PLD also, which I already examined in another post. Long story short, it's no surprise that PLD cooldowns come out on top when compared to WAR cooldowns by a significant margin.

Unless your point is that a WAR would need to utilize all their cooldowns to mitigate the same amount of damage a Paladin who isn't using a shield oath or any cooldowns would mitigate. If that's your point, then yeah, I guess you're right.

For Posterity:

I assumed 1400 average inner beast (this is averaging crit and non-crit, assuming Maim / Storm's Eye is up every time), 7000 WAR HP, 770 incoming DPS, ~100 tank DPS. I also assumed 100% physical, blockbable damage (Basically, Caduceus fight). I also assumed 26% block value as that seems to be standard for Holy Shield +1 PLD's. Finally, I left off Awareness because I don't know if I am safe assuming bosses have a crit rate of 10% and even if they do, they certainly don't crit on specials like Rock Buster / Mountain Buster / hood swipe, etc. I also counted Foresight slightly higher at 10% but that isn't really enough to matter. For this I'll use 7.5%. Also, I counted Berserk as a defensive cooldown (though I left off Internal Release as it seems slightly speculative). Finally, I didn't count Second Wind because I think it's a bad cooldown, personally.

For Convalescence, I took the amount of damage needing to be mitigated and considered that roughly the amount of healing needed, then I looked at the difference between healing required before and after.

So if a boss is doing 770 DPS, that's low enough that a WAR should be using Inner Beast whenever possible unless they are saving it for spike damage. Again, assuming a fight like Caduceus most of the damage is predictable. For this reason, I treated Infuriate as it is: a 7% increase in healing recieved for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. And using Inner Beast every 20 seconds is essentially a net heals per second of 70, which reduces the damage to be mitigated to roughly 700 (not exact when it comes to foresight, but close enough). Also, for this reason I am clearly counting the Defiance bonus as 8%, due to that being roughly the average assuming you use Inner Beast every 20 seconds and only use it after you've used Heavy Swing.

Using my numbers:
Foresight .075 * 20 * 700 / 90 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated
Featherfoot .15 * 15 * 700 / 90 = ~17.5 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100 * .25 * 30 /90 = ~8.3 DPS mitigated
Thrill of Battle 1400 / 120 = ~11.7 DPS mitigated

Convalescence - base HPS required = 648, HPS required during convolescence 546. Difference = 102 HPS. 102 * 20 / 120 = ~17 DPS mitigated
Infuriate - Since I'm counting using Inner Beast every time it's up, essentially, it works out to ~8% healing increase for 20 seconds on a 60 second CD. Base is the same as w/ Convo. With IB it's 608 HPS required, a difference of 40. 40 * 20 / 60 = ~13.3 DPS mitigated.

Berserk = Increase Inner Beast damage to roughly 2k averaged. a difference of ~600. 600 / 90 = ~6.7 DPS mitigated (potentially double if you Double IB during a Berserk).

This totals ~86.2 DPS mitigated for WAR, or about 12% of the incoming damage.

For PLD 770 DPS is cut to 616 incoming damage via Shield Oath (though I am still assuming that Rampart / Sentinel are additive, so their reduction is based off of 770 not 616).

Foresight .075*20*616/120 = ~7.7 DPS mitigated
Rampart .2*20*770/90 = 34.2 DPS mitigated
Sentinel .4*10*770/180 = 17.1 DPS mitigated
Bulwark .6*.26*15*616/180 = 8 DPS mitigated
Bloodbath @100 DPS 100*.25*15/90 = 4.16 DPS mitigated

Convalescence - Base HP/S required = 616 after Conva 456, a difference of 160. 160 * 20 /120 = 26.7 DPS mitigated
Hallowed Ground* 616 * 10 / 480 = ~13 DPS mitigated

* I don't like to count hallowed ground because just counting how much DPS it mitigates trivializes its usage. It is much better than that, and I consider it a factor but I don't like counting it as a traditional mitigation cooldown. It looks like one of PLD's worst cooldowns if examined in this light, but it's clearly their best. But I added it here for kicks.

This leaves PLD with a total of 110.9 DPS mitigation. Though in fairness this is significantly higher due to the incoming damage of PLD only being 616, it's effectively 18% of incoming DPS mitigated. I personally leave off Hallowed Ground though, which drops it to ~98 DPS mitigated, which is much closer to WAR's 86.2, and ends up being ~16% incoming DPS mitigation.

So I suppose you are right. Even using my numbers, methodology, and preferences, PLD's have ~30-50% advantage in terms of mitigation from cooldowns. I guess I was selling PLD cooldowns short by saying there was a parity. And it is worth conceding the point that getting all of that out of your cooldowns is going to be between difficult and impossible for practical terms, because it means never getting an ounce of overhealing on WAR, along with a near perfect rotation, which is unlikely.

I still stand by my assertion that the passive mitigation is a bigger deficit, though. And the fact is that Shield Oath begins to outperform Inner Beast/Defiance at incoming DPS levels ~400.

If you have some reason why Lower Baseline mitigation + no shield or Rage of Halone + less effective mitigation cooldowns = somehow better mitigation in the hands of a "skilled" player then I think you're simply wrong. Though I will admit that to get even remotely close to the potential out of WAR cooldowns you would have to play insanely well and it is honestly not particularly realistic.

I am no math whiz but aren't you forgetting maim? I may have overlooked it but isn't maim like a bonus of 20%. Wouldn't that cause inner beast to hit harder?

Maim is assumed. If you're hitting 1100 Inner Beasts non crit without maim up, let me know what kind of gear you have. Same with Storm's Eye. Storm's Path is... iffy to use at best. There is no conceivable situation in which it would match Blocks unless you were just talking about solo trash pulls in castrum.

The purpose of the analysis is to look at the passive mitigation, ehp, and general healing required. When you add in any other factors it leans more and more in favor of the PLD. Inner Beast usage was really the only "ground" for argument in which it was conceivable that WAR was on par with PLD, and my point with this info is to show that the "coparability" between the two really only lasts until you are in AK at which point PLD pulls ahead quickly.

[Giantbane]

You also failed to mention the utility of berzerk + second wind (a 500-750 minimum healing every 120 seconds)

I'm pretty sure a PLD's own stoneskin can prevent something like ~500 or so HP of incoming dmg and they don't have to wait 120 sec and blow 2 cooldowns to do it

The healing capabilities of our abilities are further increased with maim, Storm's Eye, and to a lesser extent, storm's path, which if it's heal wasn't so low (or was healing over time like in beta) would have more utility.

PLD can cure which is slightly less pathetic than storm's path.

And I wouldn't necessarily always supplement blood bath with storm's path. storm's path is actually the least damaging of our 3 combos so it's getting the least benefit from bloodbath. And if you're not doing storm's eye at all, then you're also losing out on the boost to your dmg (and healing received from blood bath) from the 10% debuff boost there.

[Surfie]

Thanks for that, your math however, fails to take overall parry rate and crit rate into account. You ignore them, but the truth is, over a long period of time, the "random" nature of them becomes a reliable percentage.


an average rough parry rate mitigation of 15% total incoming damage from spells and attack damage due to parry rate over time, (you can calculate pld parry and block against this if you would like)

Thank you. I hope you are surprised by your findings. I was.

First of all, you don't even know how parry works. It is a 15% chance to mitigate 23% of incoming damage, not a 15% chance to mitigate 100% damage.

Shield Block is superior to Parry. But here's the kicker, Paladins can parry too so your entire argument is crap.

[Kitru]

UP TO, 25% damage reduced with 405 STR from parry.
Parry procs roughly 17-25% of the time depending on how much Parry+ gear and dex you have. 211 dex seems to be the good number.

THAT WORKS OUT TO... AN AVERAGE OF 15% OF ALL DAMAGE - OVER A LONG TIME - REDUCED. *sigh*

How badly do you suck at math that you think that .25 * .25 = 15% instead of the 6.25% that it actually does.

Also, I'm reasonably confident that you can't parry magic so it's nowhere *near* "all damage".

I'm also curious where exactly you get the "WAR gets bigger Parry+" from. PLD and WAR use the same gear. They have exactly the same base Parry (I just checked in game). Unless WAR magically gets more out of the same quantity of Parry (which is indicated absolutely nowhere), WAR and PLD have the exact same Parry.

[Maelwys]

I'm also curious where exactly you get the "WAR gets bigger Parry+" from. PLD and WAR use the same gear. They have exactly the same base Parry (I just checked in game). Unless WAR magically gets more out of the same quantity of Parry (which is indicated absolutely nowhere), WAR and PLD have the exact same Parry.

I'd assume that along with the "WAR gets more Str, Str increases mitigation from Parry" argument, the fact that you can't trigger both Block and Parry on the same hit might come into play.

If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.

If both a WAR and a PLD have an identical Parry stat, then we can expect that the PLD will actually Parry attacks very slightly less often than the WAR... because some of the hits the PLD receives will trigger a Block before the Parry has a chance to occur. The WAR can never block, so they get the "full" effect of all possible parries.

Miniscule and Ignorable? Perhaps. But there is a slight difference...

[Edit: Silly Daily Posting Limits...]

Except that you're making the assumption that Parry is more valuable than Block. Since Block is more valuable than Parry (you mitigate 1-2% more with identical stats; yes, I've tested this out on my character using *the exact same gear), the argument that WAR Parries more often because they don't have Block decreasing their chance to Parry (which, once again, Block is just what a Parry with a Shield is called so that's not even true) doesn't equate to an advantage of any kind.

At best, it's a semantic point that completely misses the actual intent of what's being discussed. At worst, it's demonstrative of a complete and utter inability to actually understand what's going on.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with the OP's take that Parry is more valuable than Block. I'm just saying that if the OP is trying to lay out a complete breakdown of what mitigation PLD has available compared to what mitigation WAR has available, then nobody can make the claim that "they both have identical parry stats". Either we take "Parry" and "Block" to mean different things - so a PLD has slightly less chance to Parry but a large chance to Block, or we take them to mean the same thing - so a PLD has a *much* higher chance.

In a sense it really doesn't matter what we call it because it's going to result in the same level of mitigation for the PLD, but it does make the semantics of directly comparing what the two classes bring to the table a little trickier.

We can certainly take both Block and Parry as being the same thing if we boil it down to "amount of incoming damage mitigated passively". And I'm aware that the amount of damage mitigated by both scales with STR, but IIRC there are different chances to cause a shield block depending on the Shield that is equipped, whereas the chance to parry an attack with a weapon will remain the same regardless of the Shield type. That suggests to me that if we were to combine Block and Parry and take them as exactly the same thing for a PLD, we'd still need to separate it out again later on, because only part of our calculations will depend on what portion of that mitigation is influenced by the equipped Shield's Block Value.

I agree that to some extent it is a semantic point, and certainly that in practical terms PLD's (Block + Parry) will always beat WAR's (Parry)

Please don't think of my comments above as arguing with you. Instead picture me sitting in the audience with a bucket of popcorn, throwing out the odd heckle just to keep things interesting...
(I usually always end up rooting for the underdog, but I just cant see any way possible for WAR to win this one...)

[Kitru]

Miniscule and Ignorable? Perhaps. But there is a slight difference...

Except that you're making the assumption that Parry is more valuable than Block. Since Block is more valuable than Parry (you mitigate 1-2% more with identical stats; yes, I've tested this out on my character using *the exact same gear), the argument that WAR Parries more often because they don't have Block decreasing their chance to Parry (which, once again, Block is just what a Parry with a Shield is called so that's not even true) doesn't equate to an advantage of any kind.

At best, it's a semantic point that completely misses the actual intent of what's being discussed. At worst, it's demonstrative of a complete and utter inability to actually understand what's going on.

[Englesyn]

If memory serves, when your character gets hit, the check goes in order of: Dodge, then Block, then Parry.

PLD can dodge, block and parry, WAR can only dodge and Parry...

Seeing that paladins and warriors have the same base dodge and parry. This means Paladins get to roll a 'dice' three times to mitigate damage, vs. warriors two times.

Hope this clears anyone's thought about the matter. Some people still think that because warrior parries a few times more makes them seem like they have better parry. No, that's not the case. It's because the paladin that gets a successful block doesn't get a chance to roll for a parry.

[PiedPiper]

Also, if you shield block, you do NOT proc the chance to parry. If you unequipped a shield, you parry more, because first game checks for:

Chance to block: Yes/No Yes? Block. Parry does not happen.

Chance to block: Yes/No No? => Chance to Parry yes/no? No? => Chance to dodge yes/no? no? => Chance for mob crit you? Yes/no ?
Those things happen in that order. IF any of those things go off first, NONE OF THE THINGS UNDER HAPPEN.

So no shield, first thing that happens, is chance to parry. War gets big Parry+. Think about it.

By a huge margin, this is my favorite post in this thread. His own explanation shows why he's wrong. its teh best.

Ps, Lhum: Holy Shiled +1 wearing just full darklight (no piotns in dex or str accessories or anything of the kidn) blocks 26% when it procs. Trolololololololololololol.

OP: Love it, great work, sad days.

To the person wariror tankign Turn 1: Vid please. I really want to see this.

Edit:
OH! RIGHT!!! PPS: Luhn, paladin has mercy stroke too :>