[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Carpe]

I think the best thing to do with those "Specific" style jobs like Blu and Bard is to blend them with similar tasks to make the Weapon class then have the Job for each specialization.

Bard, Gambler, Corsair, Beast Master, Puppetmaster could all stem from the same Weapon Class "Entertainer" while Each of those Jobs is its own job.

Same with how I described how they could implement Ninja, Samurai, Mystic Knight with Oriental Weapons being used by the "Vagrant" weapon class. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ing-SAM-NIN%29

For things like Blue Mage, You can mix Blue Mage, Geomancer, and some of the Beastmaster skills together into a Weapon Class then let players build the core Blue Mage, Geomancer, Beastmaster jobs out of it and pull whats missing from that weapon class for those jobs from other weapon classes. .

I can see them adding weapon classes like "Entertainer" and "Vagrant" like you're suggesting. But I could also see how some of these jobs like Bard, Summoner, etc. could just be added as jobs. I think it just comes down to how much complexity they are going to allow the job system, the more minimalist jobs are (ex. just a title with some passives) the more they'll have to rely on the armory class to introduce new "class mechanics". But if they allow a significant degree of complexity to jobs (their own skill learning system with sufficient number of skills to use) then they could be introduced just as jobs.

With the "Entertainer" solution, the Bard Job is going to have a very strong incentive to use the Entertainer weapon with that job, which makes sense. Packing those skills into the Job system means you can have more incentive to mix the Job with different weapons like having Bard/Pugilist for a melee Bard or Bard/Arcanist for mage Bard.

That's why I hope they post more info about how the job system is going to work because until we see that we can't really figure out what kind of solutions would make more sense.

[Anty]

great post, very well written and detailed! /cheers

[northernsky]

If the job system is ready for 1.18 we'll get a full lore page for it before the patch goes live.

Yeah I guess, but I really don't expect the job system for 1.18, we will have parts of the new battle system, which could very well just be a redistribution of skills and stats balancing.

I doubt we will have features like auto-attack and a job system at mid-june, hopefully I'm wrong.

[northernsky]

I can see them adding weapon classes like "Entertainer" and "Vagrant" like you're suggesting. But I could also see how some of these jobs like Bard, Summoner, etc. could just be added as jobs. I think it just comes down to how much complexity they are going to allow the job system, the more minimalist jobs are (ex. just a title with some passives) the more they'll have to rely on the armory class to introduce new "class mechanics". But if they allow a significant degree of complexity to jobs (their own skill learning system with sufficient number of skills to use) then they could be introduced just as jobs.

With the "Entertainer" solution, the Bard Job is going to have a very strong incentive to use the Entertainer weapon with that job, which makes sense. Packing those skills into the Job system means you can have more incentive to mix the Job with different weapons like having Bard/Pugilist for a melee Bard or Bard/Arcanist for mage Bard.

That's why I hope they post more info about how the job system is going to work because until we see that we can't really figure out what kind of solutions would make more sense.

Yup well said.

I think they would need to add quite a lot of depth (that does not mean complexity) to the job system instead of adding more weapon classes with a light job system, because right now we tend to say things like "Bard/Pug" because of FFXI reference, but it would actually be a bard that fights with knuckles who can basically equip any ability he wants with mild penalties. So keeping the main emphasis on the armoury/class system would not offer as much potential for deeper class mechanics, as you said, as building a strong job system.

I still think new weapon classes should appear in future expansions, but emphasis should be put on jobs for further character development.

[Cairdeas]

Yup well said.

I think they would need to add quite a lot of depth (that does not mean complexity) to the job system instead of adding more weapon classes with a light job system, because right now we tend to say things like "Bard/Pug" because of FFXI reference, but it would actually be a bard that fights with knuckles who can basically equip any ability he wants with mild penalties. So keeping the main emphasis on the armoury/class system would not offer as much potential for deeper class mechanics, as you said, as building a strong job system.

I still think new weapon classes should appear in future expansions, but emphasis should be put on jobs for further character development.

The Entertainer Weapon class would just use those weapons to learn the skills. Once they are learned he can use them on any weapon class and specialize in being a Bard who uses fists for instance.

[Physic]

the range and style of combat is usually determined by weapon, so using a bards skills on a pugilist would be single target and probably defeat the purpose. However, choosing between con, thaum, or arc for aoe types might be interesting, which begs the question what type of range would a bard have, and what would thier primary mechanic of fighting/buffing be aside from that. hmmmm possibly tp based more than mp.

[Carpe]

I still think new weapon classes should appear in future expansions, but emphasis should be put on jobs for further character development.

I agree. I like the idea of Entertainer/Instrumentalist or Vagrant/Oriental Weapons Expert, but other things I personally don't think would work as a weapon class, like Pet Classes. You have to be more careful introducing a weapon class than a job because weapon skills are shareable, you wouldn't want every class being able to use Pets (maybe some people would, but for me it would seem awkward). So I'd rather see those pet mechanics come through the job system and let those pet-master jobs supplement their skills with the armory weapon skills. Which could be a lot of fun btw. Equip a melee class and help your pet fight or have it support you, equip a range class and let it tank for you as you dps, or equip a mage class and nuke/heal as your pet covers for you, or some combination of those strategies.

[northernsky]

I agree. I like the idea of Entertainer/Instrumentalist or Vagrant/Oriental Weapons Expert, but other things I personally don't think would work as a weapon class, like Pet Classes. You have to be more careful introducing a weapon class than a job because weapon skills are shareable, you wouldn't want every class being able to use Pets (maybe some people would, but for me it would seem awkward). So I'd rather see those pet mechanics come through the job system and let those pet-master jobs supplement their skills with the armory weapon skills. Which could be a lot of fun btw. Equip a melee class and help your pet fight or have it support you, equip a range class and let it tank for you as you dps, or equip a mage class and nuke/heal as your pet covers for you, or some combination of those strategies.

Exactly.

What you are?
A beastmaster, with associated bonuses, traits and abilities.

How you play it?
As you wish, depending on how you want to fight, either tank and let the pet DD, either DD and let the pet tank, play heal and nuke and let the pet fight for you, or a little bit of everything, that's the strength of having classes and jobs as two distinct features.

In XI it was the opposite. You were a beastmaster fighting with axes, but you could choose a sub-set of half-strength bonuses depending on your sub-job.

[Carpe]

the range and style of combat is usually determined by weapon, so using a bards skills on a pugilist would be single target and probably defeat the purpose. However, choosing between con, thaum, or arc for aoe types might be interesting, which begs the question what type of range would a bard have, and what would thier primary mechanic of fighting/buffing be aside from that. hmmmm possibly tp based more than mp.

Well maybe they'll do something to adjust how the AOE works for certain jobs like letting RDM cast AOE cures while paired with Gladiator or other DOW classes. If they don't do something like this then we'll never have really interesting DOW/DOM hybrids in this game, unless the benefit of adding a melee weapon balances out with the loss of AOE ability. It's kind of like trying to make a DRK in the current system, you can add all those magic abilities associated with a DRK on to your MRD/GLA/LNC, but in the end you end up with some kind of gimped melee and are just better off using THM. This inability to make compelling DOW/DOM hybrids in this game is something that I think needs to be fixed. Hopefully the Job system can be part of the solution.

[northernsky]

the range and style of combat is usually determined by weapon, so using a bards skills on a pugilist would be single target and probably defeat the purpose. However, choosing between con, thaum, or arc for aoe types might be interesting, which begs the question what type of range would a bard have, and what would thier primary mechanic of fighting/buffing be aside from that. hmmmm possibly tp based more than mp.

I think Bard specific abilities could have their own, independent range. If you want to focus on buffing the melees and debuffing the mob, fighting with fists would not be a problem, but probably not the most efficient as you would be half-support/half-dd. But that could lead to interesting combinations.