Warriors - How to fix our damage mitigation

[Kitru]

I just made a (long) post on Reddit about it, I'd be happy to link it.

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see how/where our math deviates. My math is in this very thread.

[Kaliban]

I think if we put the healing on Defiance, then with Stacks of wrath we can create a dmg mitigation % (increases with # of stacks) but make it somewhat less than PLD (thus keeping difference) and allowing Inner beast to stay as a heal but have it cost 2 wrath (or double the healing at 5 stacks). In this scenario, if you have 5 full stacks of wrath you have some dmg mitigation, and can use a heal without losing fully, but have to pick and choose when to use your heal (keep full stacks for a big hit, then use them for a bigger heal, then build up again to tank/spank). Seems like it would be best option. thoughts?

[Shyle]

Call it Barbarian ...

FFV had a class/job called Berserker ( http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...inal_Fantasy_V) ) where it was a 2h axe wielding job.

And if it's a dps class, maybe make the cross class lancer and archer (buffs). And give the old 1.0 warrior dps skills back to this class e.g. http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder

[Coramac]

When you start increasing the number of GCDs, you're not talking about eHP but instead healing required, which, as previously mentioned, is a different construct.

No, it is not a different construct. The problem is you are looking at static EHP which is insufficient and putting too much emphasis on "the burst." They're is no difference between Pal and War here. Typical fights throughout the past decade of MMOs have boss damage outputs that can be categorized roughly in terms of linear, small spike, and large spike. The large spike is not the real problem- by numbers posted on the forums, War can handle this. It is much more likely, as has almost always been the case, it is small and large spikes occurring in close proximity. The tank HP is never enough to sustain both. You need healing to get through these burst phases. It is more appropriate to approach HP in dynamic terms rather than simply claim it is a different issue.

[Hachiko]

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to see how/where our math deviates. My math is in this very thread.

I went and looked at your math. I think the main difference is that you assumed Storm's Eye would be present for a PLD tank.

But I'll also note that I assumed full health on Spirits Within while you seemed to assume ~70%ish.

Also your calculation for Berserk and Fight or Flight seem to be off. Berserk is more than 20% increase in damage (from my testing), and Fight or Flight averages out to 10% boost, not 5% (33.33% uptime, 30% bonus = 9.99 repeating). It's the best damage dealing cooldown in the game by a huge margin.

(also you should see the previous page for why PLD do more damage than you calculated, while not tanking).

No, it is not a different construct. The problem is you are looking at static EHP which is insufficient and putting too much emphasis on "the burst." They're is no difference between Pal and War here. Typical fights throughout the past decade of MMOs have boss damage outputs that can be categorized roughly in terms of linear, small spike, and large spike. The large spike is not the real problem- by numbers posted on the forums, War can handle this. It is much more likely, as has almost always been the case, it is small and large spikes occurring in close proximity. The tank HP is never enough to sustain both. You need healing to get through these burst phases. It is more appropriate to approach HP in dynamic terms rather than simply claim it is a different issue.

EHP is a very different construct than Healing required to stay alive. For the purposes of overall durability it is more appropriate to approach it in dynamic terms, but in doing so it's also appropriate to consider other factors (i.e. block, parry, debuffs, etc.) as well.

[Kitru]

First, both circle of Scorn and Spirits Within work out to 25 Potency per 2.5, so I don't know where 20.8 comes from.

Did you not read any of the explanations I did for the math beforehand? I used 250 for Spirits Within instead of 300 because, if you're using it on CD, you can't guarantee you'll always be at max hp. If you wait until you're at max hp, you're not using it on CD and, as such, are getting less out of it.

Second, you're not normalizing sword oath and instead adding 50 potency to the auto attacks which you've normalized to 2.5 seconds. Using Curtana as an example, that means an additional 50 potency attack every 2.32 seconds, not every 2.5.

You don't have to normalize for attack speed. The attack speed math already does that. Sword Oath doesn't provide any more for a fast weapon than it does for a slow weapon. Potency is a percentage increase to damage dealt. 50 additional potency means that you're dealing 50% more (additional). If you swing twice as fast for half of the damage, getting 50% more damage adds up the same. The only way that you would get *more* damage out of a fast weapon rather than a slow one is if the damage added is flat, which Sword Oath is not. As such, regardless of the weapon you're using, Sword Oath increases the contribution from your auto attacks to 133 from 83.

I'm not sure why you were multiplying by 1.05 (Fight or Flight is a 10% buff, averaged out).

FoF provides 5% over time, not 10%. It's 30% while it's active with a 16.67% uptime (30 seconds every 180 seconds). Multiply that out and you get 5%.

Edit: Just realized that the wiki I was using for info was using out of date stuff. The CD on FoF is 90 seconds, not 180, which is why it's 10%, not 5% like I was using.

I've done the DPS math for WAR and PAL twice. First was done for tank stances, and second for DPS-mode. I suggest you read up on them because I explained everything I did explicitly.

[Zynnlol]

go warrior buff Storm path too woot !

[Hachiko]

I've done the DPS math for WAR and PAL twice. First was done for tank stances, and second for DPS-mode. I suggest you read up on them because I explained everything I did explicitly.

I did read. I still prefer assuming 100% health rather than significantly less health for spirits within. But that's beside the point.

You are wrong on Fight or Flight. It has a 33% uptime, not 16.667. http://xivdb.com/?skill/20/Fight-or-Flight

And second, you do have to normalize for sword oath. Sword oath adds a 50 potency hit on auto attack. Auto attacks happen more often than once every 2.5 seconds for a PLD. With Curtana (one of their slowest weapons) it's once every 2.32 seconds, which puts sword oath at ~54 potency every 2.5 seconds. You've normalized the auto attack contribution to 2.5 seconds, but you didn't normalize sword oath.

Auto Attack potency is (Delay / 3)*100. Sword oath will add 50 to that number, but that number will not always be 83.333 for a PLD.

Sword oath absolutely provides more for a fast weapon than a slow weapon.

[javid]

First off, lemme throw down with some math, since that's apparently what you want.

Your own math is flawed (and the numbers themselves are wrong, but I'll move on to that later). A target with 40% DR and 5k hp has an effective hp of 8333, not 8000, which mean that you're wrong, unless you want to claim a margin of error of 300 hp (which is pretty damned big).


Getting ~900 hp every 60 seconds is a pittance: .

you're correct it's 8.33k EHP (4% error is a huge deal...)

I can tell if we sit down break this down one skill at a time; we'll get somewhere. but trying to debate every skills' potential against another all at once won't be done fairly.

So since you ended with Inner Beast lets revisit that one.

[Wyndam]

FoF provides 5% over time, not 10%. It's 30% while it's active with a 16.67% uptime (30 seconds every 180 seconds). Multiply that out and you get 5%.

I've done the DPS math for WAR and PAL twice. First was done for tank stances, and second for DPS-mode. I suggest you read up on them because I explained everything I did explicitly.

Fight or Flight is a 90 second cooldown, not 180. It lines up exactly with Bloodbath so I always use the two together.

Side note. You're the same Kitru from the SWTOR forums, aren't you? Posted a bunch in the Jedi Shadow subforum?