Warrior is OP! Paladin is OP! Make one tank class and be done with it....

[Kitru]

Being an offtank does not mean you are an inferior tank

Yes, it does. That's pretty much the explicit definition of "off tank". It is inferior for anything where a tank is actually required and, as such, is only suited for those situations where you don't need a tank that can actually tank as effectively as possible. A DPS with a decent survivability CD can *easily* qualify as an "off tank" for any situation that is actually designed for an off tank rather than a second tank entirely.

You're *choosing* to interpret the assignation of "different" as "one is an off tank the other is an actual tank", which makes *no* sense. The devs have set up the game with 3 roles: tank, DPS, and heals. You don't see off DPS and off heals. When you queue up as a WAR, it says *tank*. You are forcing the creation of an entirely fictitious role upon the game so as to justify the current state of WARs being inferior to PAL in the single most important way that a tank is defined: mitigation.

By your own logic here, Summoners should have inferior DPS compared to every other DPS class because they bring some heals. You could make the same argument for Bards because they pack some +mp.

There *are* no fusion roles. That's the entire point of a game with a trinity: DPS is DPS, heals is heals, and tank is tank. Off tank only exists as an arbitrary justification rather than an explicit design concern, which is especially comical since you're claiming that the self heals that WARs pack is somehow more useful for them as an "off tank" because, you know, tanks (in groups) are well known for walking up to massive packs of adds without a healer. The issue of WAR self sufficiency only ever comes up when discussing soloing content; in any group context, it's pointless because self-sustainability means nothing.

[Sephirah]

There *are* no fusion roles. That's the entire point of a game with a trinity: DPS is DPS, heals is heals, and tank is tank. Off tank only exists as an arbitrary justification rather than an explicit design concern

That's absolutely not true. They are not designing the game to be "Hey you need 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps, doesn't matter which class, any will do, just 1 of each." They are balanced to work together, and I'm sure content will be released that makes that more apparent to you. They are intentionally designing the class to do something DIFFERENT. Right now there are 2 tanks, if they have equal defense, and one has higher hp and damage, then that is imbalanced. I'm sorry if you're hung-up on the idea that "main tank" is the only "real" tank and that "off-tanking" is inferior, but that simply isn't true. Like I've said before I'm sure there will be boss mechanics later that REQUIRE warrior over paladin for specific things.

[Kitru]

They are not designing the game to be "Hey you need 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 dps, doesn't matter which class, any will do, just 1 of each."

The trinity refers to roles, not group composition. They *are* designing content with an explicit ratio though: 25% tank, 25% healer, and 50% DPS.

They are intentionally designing the class to do something DIFFERENT. Right now there are 2 tanks, if they have equal defense, and one has higher hp and damage, then that is imbalanced.

Once again, you have decided, via fiat rather than logical assertion, that "different" means "effective at different things" rather than "effective at the same things using different methods".

You're also using a straw man argument of what the WAR issue is. WARs are not asking for equal defense: we're asking for equal *survivability*. PALs are *supposed* to have higher mitigation. That's how they operate. WAR, on the other hand, is supposed to have higher hp and incoming healing. That's how they operate. As it stands, WARs have lower survivability because they do not receive enough incoming healing because of the known mathematical disparity.

On top of that, it's not as if the *only* things that the tanks bring is damage and survivability. The interview essentially states that PALs are supposed to have better support capability (positional skills), whether through being able to additional in CON spells or through better control on their own abilities. *That* is intended to be the offset for WAR's higher damage, not a decrease in survivability.

Nowhere has it been stated by someone who actually has an influence over the design of the game that WAR is an offtank class or that PAL is the main tank class; those are *purely* player assumptions about the given state of affairs. All of the developer commentary, on the other hand, indicates that it's not supposed to be like that at all. WAR and PAL are both "tanks". There is no differentiation between the two.

As to there being content made that emphasizes WARs over PAL, I'd be curious to see you concoct a scenario that actually does so without it being horribly contrived. Any case where higher WAR's damage (AoE *or* ST) might help isn't a case where having a WAR is better: it's a case where you need better DPS, since difference between a WAR and a PAL is smaller than the difference between a good DPS and a great DPS. Any case where a WAR's self healing might help would be predicated upon not having healers for an *extended* period of time (i.e. long enough for a PAL to have died with a WAR actually staying alive because of said healing) while having said incoming damage below a given threshold.

Just claiming that "well, they'll make content that has WARs be awesome!" doesn't mean anything when it's effectively impossible to come up with anything that isn't so horribly contrived and designed to within a *tiny* degree with WARs in mind. In a group context, the benefits that WARs bring are so small that they're overwhelmed by everything else whereas the benefits that a PAL brings are explicitly felt because *they bring what tanks are actually brought for*. Behaving as if anyone would ever choose between two tank classes based upon their damage rather than survivability is simply naive. Choosing between *utility* and damage, on the other hand, is an entirely appropriate, which is likely what the devs intend the distinction to be: do you value a more comprehensive tool box or more damage? At that point, it's a balanced state. Until such time, it's not going to be.

[Sephirah]

The trinity refers to roles, not group composition. They *are* designing content with an explicit ratio though: 25% tank, 25% healer, and 50% DPS.

Assuming they plan on keeping the same ratio as 4 mans for 24 is not that likely, that would be 6 tanks, 6 healers, and 12 dps. I've never played a game in existence that required 6 tanks for a fight. (could be interesting to see though lol)

As to there being content made that emphasizes WARs over PAL, I'd be curious to see you concoct a scenario that actually does so without it being horribly contrived.

First scenario I could think of off the top of my head is a boss mechanic that targets the tank and deals a set amount of unmitigatable damage. Something like that may require the HP pool of a WAR to absorb the hit, an HP pool that is just impossible for a paladin to reach.

[Sephirah]

I think you know your stuff Kitru, but I see many wars make the same argument about being able to do more damage is irrelevant when you're there to tank. When you say things like that, I think you should just roll a pld, if your concern is being the "main tank". You clearly view being an "off-tank" as being sub-par, all I can say is I don't think everyone sees them that way. Offtanks are a necessity, you can't send any dps out there to do it, some very skilled players could pull it off sure, but it would be an extreme strain on your healers, and why would you want to do something like that to your group when you have the option of sending a "dps" that is in actuality a "tank" to handle those adds, making things easier on everyone.

[Delorean]

Yes, it does. That's pretty much the explicit definition of "off tank".

not really

warrior is offtank on maloriak because they could spec into piercing howl etc., off tank just means you are the tank that is not tanking the boss.

Though I do laugh when people say "warriors make good offtanks". if anything we are better suited to the role of main tank than off tank.

GLDs Flash gives Blind and they have the passive 20% damage reduction as PLD. If they are swarmed by adds a few misses and passive reduction is going to amount to significantly more than 15% healing.

in the role of tanking the only thing an enormous healthpool is good for is taking a large hit. that is why when you can avoid being almost one shot comfortably, you stack stats to smooth out damage spikes, not more health.