Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

[EasymodeX]

I overhauled my spreadsheet to make it more dynamic -- manually resetting data every time I tweaked a rotation was extremely annoying. Now I can plug in a rotation and it automatically calculates everything except the overlap buff times and clipped DOTs. GG.

With that, I plugged in a few rotations that basically said "who cares about clipping?" and "so what if DE drops because I'm lazy?". All based on a 2.4s GCD. Here are the results:

HT-PH-FR, IDC offset

HPF IDC ttt
HPF ttt IDC
HPF ttt ttt

t 64.8
D 7208.3
TP 1860
TPS 28.7
DPT 3.9
DPS 111.2

IDC, interleaved alt PH/HT + FR

IDC H ttt FP ttt H
IDC P ttt HF ttt P

t 62.4
D 7040
TP 1780
TPS 28.5
DPT 4.0
DPS 112.8

HT-PH, IDC offset (no FR)

HP IDC ttt
HP ttt IDC
HP ttt ttt

t 57.6
D 6483.4
TP 1620
TPS 28.1
DPT 4.0
DPS 112.6

IDC, interleaved alt PH/HT (no FR)

IDC H ttt P ttt H
IDC P ttt H ttt P

t 57.6
D 6527.4
TP 1620
TPS 28.1
DPT 4.0
DPS 113.3

KISS: IDC PH/HT flat (similar to what Ricauer posted, but fixed, because his filler sets were reversed :P)

HP IDC ttt
HP ttt ttt

t 38.4
D 4281.2
TP 1080
TPS 28.1
DPT 4.0
DPS 111.5

Based on the above, I'm going with:

1. FR isn't worth it
2. The IDC-anchored rotation is still the best
3. You barely lose any DPS (~1.2%) or DPT with the super simple rotation, so there seems little incentive to try so hard.

Edit: I accounted for the clipped DOTs where applicable. Incidentally, PH never clips in those rotations (unless you stack even more skill speed to some amount). CT clips in a few. That said, one thing to remember is that the DOT damage in this game isn't actually that much, and the ticks are spread across a long time. As a result, losing 1 or 2 ticks isn't a big deal, particularly when the DOTs are not "hyper-efficient" compared to direct damage attacks (e.g. the DOT abilities are not super awesome, so there's no need to "protect" them so hard from clipping).

Edit2: All references to "D" for damage mean potency, for anyone new to the thread.

Sidenote: None of the numbers above account for autoattacks. From prior assessments, autoattacks don't change much no matter the buff uptime, and at the end of the day they would slightly normalize any deltas in DPS between the above rotations.

Edit3: Triple checked all manual loop and DOT clipping adjustments -- had to tweak the HT PH FR rotation and "simple" rotation slightly. Net result is that I'm not bothering with anything more complicated than the simple rotation unless I start hitting major skill speed points (probably lower than 2.25s GCDs), after which it's worth re-evaluating.

[Ayvar]

snip

Let's see if we can resolve a few issues at once here and hopefully come to some sort of realistic and applicable solution.

Issue #1: Does it really matter if you clip your DoTs?

Issue #2: Is Fracture worth it?

Issue #3: Which of our available rotations produces more damage?

Issue #4: How does the inevitable increase in spell speed factor in?

Let's go back to our 3 competing rotations, we'll call them A, B and C

(A)

HFP IDC TTT
HFP TTT IDC
HFP TTT TTT

(B)

IDC H TTT P TTT H
IDC P TTT H TTT P

(C)

HP IDC TTT
HP TTT TTT

We had already calculated the p/s for our rotations on the previous page (7594 vs. 7525), however we ignored the issue of DoT clipping, but it seems now the discussion has moved to a point where we should factor this in. In rotation A the only DoT that clips is the initial Chaos Thrust (never Phlebotomize or Fracture), so instead of a 200 potency DoT we get a 180 potency, or 198 with buffs, so I've lost 22 potency from DoT clipping. However, going back through rotation A I realized the Disembowel buff is applied to the second Disembowel, so that should've been 266 and not 242, so with that slight fix rotation A comes out at 7596 total. With your rotation both the Phlebotomize and Chaos Thrust DoTs clip, so from your original potency number you've lost 20+22+22+22+22+22 (Phlebotomize DoT is now 110 and not 132) for the three clipped Chaos Thrusts (remember we had to come back around for a few extra moves) and 3 clipped Phlebotomizes, so your total potency is now 7395. Again using our 2.4 GCD that leaves mine essentially unchanged at 109.1 p/s and yours at 110 p/s, so the gap has shrunk from 3p/s to 1p/s.

Here is rotation C in potency:

HP IDC TTT
170-187/110-198-242-193/220-181-242-363

HP TTT TTT
205-205/110-181-242-363-181-242-363

+187 for the first HT when coming back to the start. The DoT clipping numbers have been included, the Phlebotomize clips but the Chaos Thrust doesn't. In total potency that's 4385 over 17 moves (40.8s) or 107.5 p/s.

So we have our final potency numbers when including the rise and fall of our HT and Disembowel buffs, and now DoT clipping of Phlebotomize, Fracture, and Chaos Thrust.

A: 109.1
B: 110
C: 107.5

Now we've answered Issue #1 and Issue #3. Your rotation came down by 2p/s due to DoT clipping and mine (assuming I hadn't screwed up the math on the second Disembowel) came down by 0.3p/s. This also helps us answer Issue #4. With Rotation B and C, since by default most of the DoTs clip, as spell speed increases the lost potency will get worse and worse. Including DoT clipping in your rotation robbed it of 2p/s, and if you end up clipping a second tick that'll come down again to 4p/s. Since rotation A only clips a single Chaos Thrust, it suffers dramatically less from increased spell speed.

Now Issue #2 seems to be a continued sticking point, and perhaps we'll just end up disagreeing on this. When actually playing the game, you never have 100% uptime due to movement. If including a rotation with Fracture only drops your 100% uptime dps very slightly (e.g. Rotation A compared to Rotation B, and this difference will close with added spell speed) then in fights with less than 100% uptime, the rotation with more DoTs will always pull ahead.

This has been great, albiet time consuming, to figure out. I'm glad we're getting some good numbers behind these rotations.

[HoolieWho]

Nice discussion.

(A)

HFP IDC TTT
HFP TTT IDC
HFP TTT TTT

(B)

IDC H TTT P TTT H
IDC P TTT H TTT P

(C)

HP IDC TTT
HP TTT TTT

I like rotation B for the simplicity of the alternating combo-triplet, single skills. Your priorities boil down to "H or P" and "IDC or TTT." When engaged in content where performance is important, I want a simple base priority system to free my brain to deal with encounter mechanics.

I hadn't considered working Fracture in while Blood for Blood is active. As of now Fracture is not on my hotbar. I have been choosing between the utility abilities Featherfoot and Mantra.

I seem to recall that SCH has a fairy ability that enhances skill speed. If so, how much of a boost is this and would it impact your rotations significantly?

[xyaie]

Not sure what it says about me, but its really getting to me that I cant contribute more to this conversation . As is I only have an hour or two a day to play and use it for things other than testing. Ill get an off day sooner or later!

Great work guys. (Not sure if both are guys..)

[EasymodeX]

Aha, I can finally post!

The DoT clipping numbers have been included, the Phlebotomize clips but the Chaos Thrust doesn't.

PH does not clip in any of the setups at 2.4s GCDs. In the simple rotation the PH is cast at t=2.4 and 21.6. The difference is 19.2 seconds. PH is an 18 second DOT. You'd have to drop the GCD below 2.25 or something to clip PH. In the IDC-anchored rotation with no FR, PH is cast at t=16.8, 36, and 55.2. Again, 19.2s spreads.

You probably want to review how you're assessing DOT/buff timing.

With Rotation B and C, since by default most of the DoTs clip, as spell speed increases the lost potency will get worse and worse.

The simple rotation has the best "not clipping when scaled with more skill speed" characteristic since it has the lowest DE and CT uptime.

then in fights with less than 100% uptime, the rotation with more DoTs will always pull ahead.

I'm gonna go ahead and address / call this out now: this is a fallacy and you need to stop leaning on it to justify vague assumptions and your personal preference. DOTs are not inherently better with lost contact time. The key is how much potential damage is unloaded per GCD of contact time.

In games where the DOTs do "5000" damage compared to a direct damage GCD of "500", then yes "keeping up the DOT during loss of contact" matters. However, this has nothing to do with the player being out of range of the boss with DOTs ticking, directly. It has to do with the fact that it was your last chance to unload a GCD, so you want to unload a "BIG" GCD -- the 5k DOT, not a 500 damage strike.

In FF14, the DOTs are not hyper-efficient per GCD. Hell, untraited Fracture is barely efficient at all.

In this game, hitting a buffed Fracture is 253 potency. Hitting the Vorpal Thrust is 242. If you're about to lose contact with a boss, neither attack has a significant advantage. There is no "DOT advantage". There is only "the biggest GCD I can use before the boss is too far away".

The only DOTs that you should concern yourself with in terms of "must refresh before losing contact" are CT and PH, and only if they are running out soon (and in CT's case, if you can even finish the chain before you lose contact -- in all likelihood the only real decision would be to refresh PH or use something else like ID-DE, or a loose ID).

[ManLet]

IDC, interleaved alt PH/HT (no FR)

IDC H ttt P ttt H
IDC P ttt H ttt P

t 57.6
D 6527.4
TP 1620
TPS 28.1
DPT 4.0
DPS 113.3

So this is the highest dps rotation possible? How come you don't get more damage from using HT first, or getting PH up faster?

[Ayvar]

PH does not clip in any of the setups at 2.4s GCDs. In the simple rotation the PH is cast at t=2.4 and 21.6. The difference is 19.2 seconds. PH is an 18 second DOT. You'd have to drop the GCD below 2.25 or something to clip PH. In the IDC-anchored rotation with no FR, PH is cast at t=16.8, 36, and 55.2. Again, 19.2s spreads.

You probably want to review how you're assessing DOT/buff timing.

I didn't say they did clip at 2.4, remember that we want to assess how the various rotations compared when they do start clipping DoTs. Once rotation B stats clipping DoTs it will clip at every Phlebotomize, and already clips the Chaos Thrusts.

The simple rotation has the best "not clipping when scaled with more skill speed" characteristic since it has the lowest DE and CT uptime.

It also has the lowest p/s. And when it does start clipping it will again clip every Phlebotomize.

I'm gonna go ahead and address / call this out now: this is a fallacy and you need to stop leaning on it to justify vague assumptions and your personal preference. DOTs are not inherently better with lost contact time. The key is how much potential damage is unloaded per GCD of contact time.

In games where the DOTs do "5000" damage compared to a direct damage GCD of "500", then yes "keeping up the DOT during loss of contact" matters. However, this has nothing to do with the player being out of range of the boss with DOTs ticking, directly. It has to do with the fact that it was your last chance to unload a GCD, so you want to unload a "BIG" GCD -- the 5k DOT, not a 500 damage strike.

In FF14, the DOTs are not hyper-efficient per GCD. Hell, untraited Fracture is barely efficient at all.

In this game, hitting a buffed Fracture is 253 potency. Hitting the Vorpal Thrust is 242. If you're about to lose contact with a boss, neither attack has a significant advantage. There is no "DOT advantage". There is only "the biggest GCD I can use before the boss is too far away".

The only DOTs that you should concern yourself with in terms of "must refresh before losing contact" are CT and PH, and only if they are running out soon (and in CT's case, if you can even finish the chain before you lose contact -- in all likelihood the only real decision would be to refresh PH or use something else like ID-DE, or a loose ID).

These comments surprise me as I'd hoped things would remain rather reasonable in this thread. Either way, I'll try to address your comments without assuming you're resorting to personal bias as I would've liked to have had extended to myself.

The problem with your comparison of Vorpal Thrust to Fracture is it assumes in the GCD's you actually have to hit the boss you get to use Vorpal Thrust, however this ability must be preceeed by True Thrust first. If you have a single GCD with which to hit something and produce the highest potency then Phlebotomize is your most efficient ability with a total of 337 potency. The second? Fracture, with 253. After that it's rear Impulse Drive. No matter what argument you want to make, if you have only a few abilities to use before a boss teleports away you won't use TT-VT-FT, you'll use Phlebotomize and Fracture and then move into Impulse Drive - Disembowel - Chaos Thrust.

The reason is priority. If the boss (or you) moves after 1 GCD, you've used your highest potency ability. If it moves after two you've used your next highest (Fracture). If you moved into Impulse Drive right after Phlebotomize and you then had to move out immediately, you've sacrificed potency to try to move into your IDC combo. You can design rotations for FFXIV, but when it comes to choosing the structure of those rotations they must be based around priority. In terms of potency your priority is to get Phlebotomize and Fracture up as soon as they come off because they are your highest potency skills that don't require a combo.

Either way I fear the discussion between us is beginning to devolve and so I'll leave it here. I did enjoy it though.

[StrangerousDangerous]

had to put my post on ZAM since this forum is absolutely horrible and wont let me post anything than a short comeback. this thread is quoted over there.

I have issues with skill speed reducing the GCD and the over complexity of the class, along with way too many skills to use effectively given the macro system under preforms greatly.

My fear is that dragoons and monks wont really be sought after for endgame since it will be incredibly difficult for them to preform up to their potential.

[Vanidin]

I'm curious, I'm not a dragoon... how long given a boss fight where the dragoon doesn't have to move can they maintain that ideal rotation before running out of tp?

[MalcolmReynolds]

I'm curious, I'm not a dragoon... how long given a boss fight where the dragoon doesn't have to move can they maintain that ideal rotation before running out of tp?

Quite a while actually. Fight until you drop to 600 TP (500 if you have the Exhilarate trait) and use Invigorate. This will get you back to full while allowing the Invigorate CD to run. The only way I've run out of TP so far is when I've had to use Chaos Thrust (mostly for Fates) or Ring of Thorns. Otherwise as long as you're mindful and use Invigorate to its full potential, you'll be fine, even for longer fights.