EXPLOIT: Amdapor Keep

[Rurushan]

I can't wait until you spend.. Oh I don't know.. 7 runs.. So that's probably without wipes of course 7 hours? 7 and a half hours if you're using duty finder for sure just to cap your Myth a WEEK.

You're literally spending 90% of that time either clearing trash mobs or wiping to the wall. And that 7 hours is being generous, so many people still don't understand that boss fight that it's completely beyond me.

I've watched someone do a run like this on twitch. Not against this at all. Once you play the dungeon at it's entirety 5 times, you tend to get a little bit bored of it.

So this IS your first MMO, then? Here is how it works: Player gets to level cap, further expansion of character is then decided by gear upgrades. Getting better gear often means running large dungeons or raids but key enemies (bosses) will only drop a few pieces of gear to be divvied up amongst the party. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you dont. But why shouldn't a boss just drop gear for everyone all the time? Why isn't there a simple algorithm to determine what the boss could drop that is an upgrade to you? Why should you ever have to beat this dungeon more than once?

It's simple, the developers want you to keep playing the game so you keep paying them to play, obviously. To do this, they want to balance the time it takes to achieve the upper limits of your character against the time it takes to churn out the next content patch. Ideally, hardcore players (the minority) will be 'done' halfway(-ish) through the lifespan of a current content patch for which they were 'maxed' out in the patch prior to this one. Ultimately though, players with such devotion will likely play the game anyway whether or not they have done everything. Casual players (the majority) will be reaching their limits JUST before the next content patch so they will always have something to strive for and will continue playing (and paying) because of it.

So how do you fill in that gap? Having no guarantee on gear due to random drops and/or rolling against other players for gear is one way. Naturally, dungeons are designed to impede you... otherwise there would be no bosses, just a room with a treasure chest, go get your loot! Bosses and trash mobs are supposed to block your path and make you work for your gear and you are supposed to fight them ad infinitum until the next content patch arrives.

If it sucks for you, do something else. A good MMO will have plenty of distractions from the 'main' goal of gearing up and gaining power. Obviously it will all become boring if you repeat the same things over and over again but it is supposed to be an investment of your time to keep you paying to play.

And 7 hours to cap for the week? Thats cute. And people say WoW went too casual.

Edit: It's an exploit, but I encourage it. Players will inevitably always find the shortest path to power by ANY means available to them in-game. Someone at SQEX is going to see this in action, say 'thats not good game design' and it'll be changed accordingly. The game only gets better because of complaints and concerns made vocal. It's not as simple as having the mobs aggro onto the entire party in a dungeon... there's a clear reason why players are avoiding the trash. I would like to think that the devs would re-examine how long it takes to clear the trash, adjust their power accordingly if necessary, and maybe do something to encourage killing them - improve gil drops, add rare drops that only trash in that dungeon can drop, etc.

[ThePatriarch]

So this IS your first MMO, then? Here is how it works: Player gets to level cap, further expansion of character is then decided by gear upgrades. Getting better gear often means running large dungeons or raids but key enemies (bosses) will only drop a few pieces of gear to be divvied up amongst the party. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you dont. But why shouldn't a boss just drop gear for everyone all the time? Why isn't there a simple algorithm to determine what the boss could drop that is an upgrade to you? Why should you ever have to beat this dungeon more than once?

It's simple, the developers want you to keep playing the game so you keep paying them to play, obviously. To do this, they want to balance the time it takes to achieve the upper limits of your character against the time it takes to churn out the next content patch. Ideally, hardcore players (the minority) will be 'done' halfway(-ish) through the lifespan of a current content patch for which they were 'maxed' out in the patch prior to this one. Ultimately though, players with such devotion will likely play the game anyway whether or not they have done everything. Casual players (the majority) will be reaching their limits JUST before the next content patch so they will always have something to strive for and will continue playing (and paying) because of it.

So how do you fill in that gap? Having no guarantee on gear due to random drops and/or rolling against other players for gear is one way. Naturally, dungeons are designed to impede you... otherwise there would be no bosses, just a room with a treasure chest, go get your loot! Bosses and trash mobs are supposed to block your path and make you work for your gear and you are supposed to fight them ad infinitum until the next content patch arrives.

If it sucks for you, do something else. A good MMO will have plenty of distractions from the 'main' goal of gearing up and gaining power. Obviously it will all become boring if you repeat the same things over and over again but it is supposed to be an investment of your time to keep you paying to play.

And 7 hours to cap for the week? Thats cute. And people say WoW went too casual.

so the tl;dr version is that you enjoy wasting time? I can tell you have copious amounts of experience with FFXIV with your join date and job levels. How about you get past level 20 before you comment on how endgame dungeons should be tweeked?

[Rurushan]

so the tl;dr version is that you enjoy wasting time? I can tell you have copious amounts of experience with FFXIV with your join date and job levels. How about you get past level 20 before you comment on how endgame dungeons should be tweeked?

I don't think MMOs are for you. This is just basic design and does not specifically apply to FFXIV, whether I have been to its endgame or not. If it's BORING, thats one thing, but if its taking up your time, thats working as intended. You don't know what you're getting into if after the 5th or 6th run of the same dungeon you start complaining.

[ThePatriarch]

I don't think MMOs are for you. This is just basic design and does not specifically apply to FFXIV, whether I have been to its endgame or not. If it's BORING, thats one thing, but if its taking up your time, thats working as intended. You don't know what you're getting into if after the 5th or 6th run of the same dungeon you start complaining.

I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

Speedruns, or "Sac" pulling is a "norm" in the realm of FF MMO's. Now I agree with you that skipping everything is a little questionable, but how about they give us a reason to kill the trash mobs, not just using "time" as a reason.

For instance, make them drop gil (very small increments), items to turn in for gear (nothing great, maybe?) or atleast a little incentive to spend the minute or so to kill them. Otherwise people are just going to speed past them

If you did play FFXI, take Dynamis, or Limbus for example. Trash mobs dropped pieces of currency, or just random objects that at the bare minimum put something in your loot pool.

[Rurushan]

I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

Sorry, what I've described is basic design for GOOD mmos.

Edit: to respond to your edit:

I feel as if you might not have played the other Final Fantasy MMO either

Speedruns, or "Sac" pulling is a "norm" in the realm of FF MMO's. Now I agree with you that skipping everything is a little questionable, but how about they give us a reason to kill the trash mobs, not just using "time" as a reason.

For instance, make them drop gil (very small increments), items to turn in for gear (nothing great, maybe?) or atleast a little incentive to spend the minute or so to kill them. Otherwise people are just going to speed past them

Assuming you played FFXI, take Dynamis, or Limbus for example. Trash mobs dropped pieces of currency, or just random objects that at the bare minimum put something in your loot pool.

Well thats what I said. The people crying about this not being an exploit are afraid of it changing because they feel its taking too long. It was flawed in FF11 and its still flawed here. The fix for it is not as simple as implementing a way to force the players to kill everything and I really HOPE that if they DO decide to force players to kill everything, there needs to be incentive to kill them. Unique currency or drops that only enemies from this dungeon can drop, daily quests even that reward you for killing them, increased gil. It's my understanding that besides it taking 'too long' to kill them, they aren't WORTH that time in the player's minds. Some more incentive without rewarding the player TOO much for it would go a long way.

[ThePatriarch]

Sorry, what I've described is basic design for GOOD mmos.

Opinion =/= Fact

In the meantime, how about you go level up past 20 and come back to us when you aren't wet behind your ears and debate this further.

Well thats what I said. The people crying about this not being an exploit are afraid of it changing because they feel its taking too long. It was flawed in FF11 and its still flawed here. The fix for it is not as simple as implementing a way to force the players to kill everything and I really HOPE that if they DO decide to force players to kill everything, there needs to be incentive to kill them. Unique currency or drops that only enemies from this dungeon can drop, daily quests even that reward you for killing them, increased gil. It's my understanding that besides it taking 'too long' to kill them, they aren't WORTH that time in the player's minds. Some more incentive without rewarding the player TOO much for it would go a long way.

I agree.

[Rurushan]

Opinion =/= Fact

In the meantime, how about you go level up past 20 and come back to us when you aren't wet behind your ears and debate this further.

Whether or not I like a game is indeed an opinion. Sales are fact, however, and thats what I was talking about. FF11 was successful in its own right though, don't get me wrong. Naturally though if you only know Final Fantasy and nothing else then yeah I guess it must have been really good.

Edit: Oh, and I'll level up when I can log in and play ;o;