Relationships of the Twelve

[Mjollnir]

As an aside, I can attest that there's not much difference between 'master' and 'wife'; I'm now in my fifth year of marriage.

[Ramesses]

So, I was working on some lore round-ups and I realized something I didn't realize before. Erik refers to Nymeia as the "wife of Rhalgr" even though their relationship is listed as master and attendant... mistake?

Ahhh yes, precisely Anonymoose... this is EXACTLY what I have been trying to deduce since back in 2010... and every time I equate this into the speculations, many many things become clearer. Major lengthy post incoming... grab yourself a drink. Trust me.

First off, much thanks to Jesse for bringing my attention to the discussion and citing my blog in his post (btw, I got your comment on my blog via email and once again, apologies for the late response. Hope this response shall suffice). That said, I have to declare that the lore about the Twelve have always fascinated me like an incurable itch and its amazing how they continue to intrigue all of us.

Secondly, I wanted to say bloody well done to everyone who has posted on this thread... excellent cognitive thoughts and every response just seems to make me rethink every theory I ever came up with regarding this issue. Well done as well to everyone who made a chart for the Twelve... nothing like solid visual aids to help clarify a point (Im making one myself to post up later on, so just bear with me in the meantime).

Thirdly, here are my three cents on this (and no, I shall not apologize for its length because you guys deserve nothing less than a thorough contribution). To begin, I'm going to use the assumption that we are not yet considering the Twelve as a possible group of 12 wise men and women from the Age of the Allagans who found a way to evolve themselves into godhood (which is DEFINITELY another possiblity but that's for another day). Rather, we are going to approach the matter as if they were actual divine beings made of the purest form of... I dunno... perhaps Aether?.

Next, please allow me to underline my first point by using Moose's chart. Here, you guys will notice that the five following gods are not only apparently the (First Generation?) but they are all under the Umbral sign...

• Althyyk
• Nymeia
• Rhalgr
• Oshon
• Nald'Thal

Only Thaliak is under the Astral sign... Why? As said in my blog back then, was there another pantheon of gods we don't yet know about? One that was perhaps worshiped by just the Garleans and the people of IIlsabard and Othard? Why was Thaliak the only one that manifested as Astral ("Light") amoung the first six gods/goddesses of Eorzea?

This made me wonder perhaps there was a connection somehow... afterall, several mythologies explain that there has to be darkness for Light to emerge and be appreciated. Thus, for the purpose of this discussion, lets just say Umbral is Dark energy while Astral is Light energy; and Thaliak as far as we know, belongs only to the original pantheon of Eorzea's "Twelve". Agreed?

Next step is this... for a long while after we all played through the "Living On A Prayer" quest in 1.0 (and witnessed the awesome ending CG), I started thinking that somewhere along the line in eons past, Thaliak became "Enlightened" about something critical to the gods' survival. Could that be why his symbol is Astral? Which brings us to phase 2 of my investigations:

• He and Nymeia are the only ones related to the element of Water (which is symbolic for wisdom)
• His is of 4th moon of the Eorzean calendar while Nymeia is the 3rd (right before him? Coincidence or am I just adding numbers in sequence?)
• His "wisdom" seems to be what "saves" us all not only in this present age, but apparently also in previous ages

Now on to phase 3... methinks he and Nymeia looked through her weavings of fate and realised that the six of them needed to evolve or their existence might be in peril. Perhaps they needed to initiate something to help bring balance to their Umbral energy... so they arrived at a plan to have "children" who have Astral energy.

Thus, Althyk... (taking advantage of this suggestion?)...swiftly declares Nymeia will be his wife even though...(and bear with me here)... she "loves" Rhalgr. Yeah, I guess even in the divine realm, the females still have a thing for bad and dangerous males, right?). Anyway, they have their first daughter Azeyma who is none other than the Goddess of Fire (or of "Light" if you will) and I think it is intentional that she is also called the Warden or Protector... perhaps because she represented the first real "Astral Light" that the gods created by themselves thus it became her duty to protect this "Light". She also protects the "Truth" (this truth could refer to Thaliak + Nymeia's elaborate plan).

In time, a second daughter (Melphina) is born and although she is Umbral, she is the perfect "ying-yang" polar opposite to her sister (goddess of the Moon while her sister is the Sun; controls Ice or Cold while her sister is Fire, Hot). This may be wrong and there may be a lot more to this (after all, there was another discussion we had about her connections to her "hound" Dalamud and why she was goddess of both moons)

However, now the tale gets interesting... the powerful Althyk starts to feel that any more "children" will start to undermine his own power (sounds familiar? Reminds us of Zeus and Jupiter, innit?). I find it curious that he is usually depicted as an austere emperor wielding a great axe... sounds like he really was the "leader" of the gods. And thus the following may be what occurred in phase 4:

• His wife/sister Nymeia tries to reason with him for more kids but he adamantly refuses
• Rhalgr, who perhaps was always jealous of Althyk, sees his chance to seduce Nymeia and/or get her back to his side.
• Nymeia, though still in love with Rhalgr, actually agrees to the deal not out of love but out of a noble effort to save their existence.
• This could be why she also laid down the rules... he will be her "attendant" (or secret "consort") in order to maintain their future "integrity". After all, they had to exhibit a perfect image towards us mortals, innit?
• Afterwards, they swiftly had two children... Halone and Byregot. Now check Moose's chart yet again and see another coincidence: both are of Astral energy. Interesting innit?
• Of course, Althyk isn't pleased about it and swiftly denounces Rhalgr in a jealous rage, calling him the Destroyer (of his incestuous marriage)
• In the end though, mission accomplished and now Thaliak begins the next phase of their elaborate plan... he and Azeyma now have two daughters.
• Guess what... both daughters (Nophica and Llymaen) are of Astral energy. Not only that but that particular side of the family PERFECTLY represent the four main elements.

See it now?

Please let me repeat yet again... these are all very wild speculations that I have kept mulling over and over and over in my head for almost three years and by no means are they anywhere near correct. But as with all mythologies, there are always parts to be played by each god or goddess... the hero or heroine, the lovers, the jealous one, the betrayer, the noble one, the power-hungry leader... name it.

The more I tried to figure out the Dev Team's concept of the Twelve, the more it stuck me that Thaliak (and his "archon" our great Sensei Louisoix) was always meant to play a large part in this great mysterious weave. And it is also very intriguing how he took Byregot under his wing as his protege... as if to say "Yesssss, this is perfect final result of our divine breeding program". But then again, I've always liked both of them (yeah, I'm biased on that cuz Im an artist and architecture student)

There are so many many aspects of the Twelve that I'm excited for in ARR... for instance, it has struck me several times that perhaps one of the reasons that Halone and Nophica hate each other has to do with the relationship between the Elezen of Ishgard and those of Gridania. According to the official page for the Elezen:

The forests, of which the Black Shroud is the tangled heart, have been home to the Wildwood Elezen for hundreds of years. Many of the Wildwood, however, have been drawn to the city-states they helped found, such as Ishgard and Gridania

Blame my fascination with Ishgard for this but when we also explore the legends from the Dragoon job quests we find that founding population of Ishgard were not only Elezen but they arrived there after "journeying to the land promised them by the Fury". Its as if there was a serious dispute in the Black Shroud that lead to one faction emigrating to Coerthas to develop Ishgard. Could this be because of the hate between those two goddesses?

Anyway, I hope this extensive post contributes some humble approach to the mystery of the Twelve and that we all maintain a healthy amount of awesome speculations as we await more spiffy info from E3 this week.

Yeah... my anticipation is at an all time high.

[jesseleewelch]

Thank you for that extensive theory Ramesses! And I appreciate that you have taken such notice too. I have posted on the live letter thread as well as gamer escapes question request and hope that the question will be asked at some point next week. Again, thank you for your input!

[Catapult]

I am instinctively wary of trying to create a story where little to no literature exists, but then that is a side-effect of my mundane work. I can't pick any holes in your theory, but I can't see much evidence for them either. It's one of those awkward situations where I'm simply content to wait for some small bombs of NPC/quest text before digging deeper.

There are so many many aspects of the Twelve that I'm excited for in ARR... for instance, it has struck me several times that perhaps one of the reasons that Halone and Nophica hate each other has to do with the relationship between the Elezen of Ishgard and those of Gridania. According to the official page for the Elezen:

The forests, of which the Black Shroud is the tangled heart, have been home to the Wildwood Elezen for hundreds of years. Many of the Wildwood, however, have been drawn to the city-states they helped found, such as Ishgard and Gridania

Blame my fascination with Ishgard for this but when we also explore the legends from the Dragoon job quests we find that founding population of Ishgard were not only Elezen but they arrived there after "journeying to the land promised them by the Fury". Its as if there was a serious dispute in the Black Shroud that lead to one faction emigrating to Coerthas to develop Ishgard. Could this be because of the hate between those two goddesses?

Since we're still a week off being allowed to speak freely regarding beta content, I'll get back to this next weekend.

[jesseleewelch]

Thirdly, here are my three cents on this (and no, I shall not apologize for its length because you guys deserve nothing less than a thorough contribution). To begin, I'm going to use the assumption that we are not yet considering the Twelve as a possible group of 12 wise men and women from the Age of the Allagans who found a way to evolve themselves into godhood (which is DEFINITELY another possiblity but that's for another day).

According to the known lore, we know the following...

"A pantheon of deities revered by the majority of Eorzea's populace, they are said to have ruled the continent and its surrounding islands until the arrival of wandering tribes. Impressed by the resilience of the primitive settlers, each of the Twelve mercifully saw fit to ensure their welfare."

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Categoryeities

If the 12 existed and ruled Eorzea since before any of the five races ever immigrated there, it would imply they could not have been mortals who ascended to godhood as they existed in Eorzea before mortals went there. It would also rule out the idea that they mated with mortals for the same reason. At least, that is the way I am looking at this right now.

I REALLY like Ramesses' theory as it really does make perfect sense to me. If we don't get any official response from SE I might just assume that until proven otherwise. If we rule out mating with mortals and recognize that Althyk could not have mated with his daughters or granddaughters to produce his daughters, that would only leave Halone and Nymeia as viable possibilities for mother of Azeyma and Menphina.

As I said, I think Ramesses' story makes the most sense of any theory out there but I would really love to hear from SE and get some kind of official response on the matter.

[finiteHP]

According to the known lore, we know the following...

"A pantheon of deities revered by the majority of Eorzea's populace, they are said to have ruled the continent and its surrounding islands until the arrival of wandering tribes. Impressed by the resilience of the primitive settlers, each of the Twelve mercifully saw fit to ensure their welfare."

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Categoryeities

If the 12 existed and ruled Eorzea since before any of the five races ever immigrated there, it would imply they could not have been mortals who ascended to godhood as they existed in Eorzea before mortals went there. It would also rule out the idea that they mated with mortals for the same reason. At least, that is the way I am looking at this right now.

The problem is that just because we are told the Twelve existed before the races came to Eorzea, it doesn't mean it's true. As Fernehalwes said:

4. Do the Twelve exist? Are the Archons from the Circle of Knowing actually the Twelve? Are the primals and the Twelve one in the same (er, twelve in the same)?

More info on the gods of Eorzea and how both the Twelve and the primal fit into the whole celestial scheme of things will be revealed in ARR, but even then things will remain hazy. I mean, it’s religion. It’s hazy by design. In one age, a guy who single-handedly kills a microchu to save a girl is a good Samaritan. The story gets told by a thousand different people, each time changing just a little, but each time becoming more epic (the microchu becomes an ochu, the ochu becomes ten ochus, the girl becomes a princess, and so-on). In the next age, he’s a hero. In the next, he’s a saint. In the next, he’s a god, smiting ochus with levinbolts from high atop a snowy peak. And what of those people who possess magic or technology that is beyond the comprehension of the commonfolk? Would they not appear as gods? And what about those powerful entities who fancy themselves as gods, and use people gullible enough to follow them to obtain what they desire (power, gold, etc.)? And what of the actual gods, who normally don’t give a hoot about the ants crawling about their realms, but will intervene when it amuses them? Hopefully the story in ARR will help categorize who falls into what slot.

I can mention why primals are referred to as primals, though. It is not because they are underdeveloped, younger deities, but because the beast tribes tend to believe that they were the ones who created them, the world, and everything. They are the primal forms of existence.

Myths and legends change over time. The Twelve (or the older members) could have been around since the creation of the world, or they could just as easily be Allagan survivors that seem godly to the "primitives".

[Mjollnir]

they could just as easily be Allagan survivors

See now, idk why, but this is what I'd always thought.

[Akubikumo]

More info on the gods of Eorzea and how both the Twelve and the primal fit into the whole celestial scheme of things will be revealed in ARR, but even then things will remain hazy. I mean, it’s religion. It’s hazy by design. In one age, a guy who single-handedly kills a microchu to save a girl is a good Samaritan. The story gets told by a thousand different people, each time changing just a little, but each time becoming more epic (the microchu becomes an ochu, the ochu becomes ten ochus, the girl becomes a princess, and so-on). In the next age, he’s a hero. In the next, he’s a saint. In the next, he’s a god, smiting ochus with levinbolts from high atop a snowy peak. And what of those people who possess magic or technology that is beyond the comprehension of the commonfolk? Would they not appear as gods? And what about those powerful entities who fancy themselves as gods, and use people gullible enough to follow them to obtain what they desire (power, gold, etc.)? And what of the actual gods, who normally don’t give a hoot about the ants crawling about their realms, but will intervene when it amuses them? Hopefully the story in ARR will help categorize who falls into what slot.

But there's one HUGE difference here: The story of Eorzea and The Tweleve was NOT developed over thousands of years by countless authors. It was developed someone at SE. Somebody, somewhere knows the full story of the twelve since they invented the entire thing just for this game.

What we've been given, through in-game info, dev responses, and other sources, has been selectively chosen for us. We're not dealing with a long lost-through-the-ages history here. We're dealing with a fabricated (and intentionally foggy) lore, of which SE is in total control of the narrative. The fact that all the astral AND umbral elements are represented by the twelve in perfect symmetry tells me that whoever wrote all this out sat down in front of an elemental wheel and gave each element a name, with evenly distributed sexes, then drew connnections bewteen them via "relationships", i.e. Siblings, Lovers, Rivals, etc.

I think if, we're going to get anywhere without more dev info, we have to keep this in mind: Someone at SE has intentionally laid out this narrative. Its like forshadowing in a movie. They only show you what they want you to see. The drops about Allagan and old emperors and wandering tribes. All this info serves some purpose. Whether its to send us off the trail or lead us to it. To what purpose we have no idea but there can be no doubt there is a purpose, (which is very unlike religious and legendary stories in real life). The fact that they twelve perfectly account for all elements is a huge sign to me that there is an underlying pattern that's either intentionally broken or intentionally obscured.

[Anonymoose]

To really drive that point home, consider the fact that one of the reasons the Meteor project stupefied the minds of Eorzeans (aside from Cid) was that they believed that Dalamud had always been there as it was related to the Moon, which they believed to be a manifestation of Menphina, "Keeper of the twin moons."

[Akubikumo]

To really drive that point home, consider the fact that one of the reasons the Meteor project stupefied the minds of Eorzeans (aside from Cid) was that they believed that Dalamud had always been there as it was related to the Moon, which they believed to be a manifestation of Menphina, "Keeper of the twin moons."

ha! right, so then we could say the connection of Menphina and twin moons is only as old as Dalamund. Maybe Menphina herself is only that old (her story that is..in the game...not in RL...ugh). Doesn't that one Tome say its a compilation of texts? Which would mean they werent all from the same time.

(an aside note: Yaeko Sato said, when asked which came first the story or the world, she said that world was already built and she wrote the story around it. Doesn't explain anything but helps us see the context the writer was in. Fits my "arbitrarily connecting the dots" scenario from above)