1.0 Ul'dahn story arc

[Aislin]

I don't think Ascians are the great danger in the Ul'dah questline. They don't make an appearance at all. There's no primals for them to be chasing after. And the horn used to shake the Goobbue awake doesn't appear to interest them.

I have to correct you here because they did make a brief appearance during the quest 'Toll of the Warden'
Quoting Zoxio: Those ones are of much evil! Those ones are of much power!
Although I would agree with you, I wouldn't discount them being a great danger. I think they are/were the looming threat of the story overall.

other than that I like this thread A+
/goes back to lurking TuT

[HiirNoivl]

"Toll of the Warden" is not in the Ul'dah Questline. It occurs after all the sordid business in the intro quests are over.

I know that the floating skelly is a shadowless, but I'm omitting that scene on purpose because I think someone else is working on those stories that everyone had to do.

[Aislin]

Oh I see, I need to pay more attention. lol

[Catapult]

Ok, so there are a few things I want to clear up for you all.

The Velodyna Cosmos:
I find it highly unlikely we are talking about thaumaturgical preservation here. It's more of a case of time-travel.
In the time Thancred is investigating Ul'dah, the city is in open floral trade with Gridania thanks to the good relationship Niellefresne has established with the Greatloam Growery. It is only after Nielle's death that this relationship is broken down, making them expensive and rare in the present day.
Nielle remarks that the flower has not yet begun to wilt. This is because the import and distribution of the flowers, as far as he is concerned, happened a few days ago, but it still looks freshly cut. Of course, you've only had the flower for a few hours, which explains its condition. All that echo-jumping is playing with peoples' perceptions.

Lord Lolorito:
Claiming he is at the centre of conspiracies and is himself Ala Mhigan is drawing an unreasonably long bow. If he were Ala Mhigan, he would have been met with the same sorts of discriminations as our beloved Flame General. No, this man is a very well established merchant who has been building his wealth in the Ul'dahn heirachy for a long time. He owns Esthaimes and Sunsilk and it is in his interest to have strong trading partners. While he stands to benefit from economic activity of war, he also has a lot to lose from the elimination of a significant trading partner or if his wealth is ransacked by Garlemald.
So spy? No. Self-interested prick interested only in wealth? Yes.
Lolorito's possesion of Heartstrike is not only justified by his ownership of Esthaimes, but he may fear it being used against him (and I don't mean in a lethal manner - a financial one). If anyone is going to own the secrets of resurrecting the dead, it better be him!

The true danger facing Ul'dah:
We know that Minfilia is Ascilia, so let me pull out this quote for you:

Seranelien: Lady Minfilia is one of the few survivors of the Fall of the Keeper─one of the few who remember the horrors of that fateful night, ten years gone.
I am sworn to protect her, and I will give my life before breaking that vow.

That's right, Ascilia witnessed the Battle of Silvertear Skies, presumably with her father, who then travelled to Ul'dah to bring the dire news of the implications for the aetherial balance and expected primal activity.

[HiirNoivl]

Ok, so there are a few things I want to clear up for you all.

The Velodyna Cosmos:
I find it highly unlikely we are talking about thaumaturgical preservation here. It's more of a case of time-travel.
In the time Thancred is investigating Ul'dah, the city is in open floral trade with Gridania thanks to the good relationship Niellefresne has established with the Greatloam Growery. It is only after Nielle's death that this relationship is broken down, making them expensive and rare in the present day.
Nielle remarks that the flower has not yet begun to wilt. This is because the import and distribution of the flowers, as far as he is concerned, happened a few days ago, but it still looks freshly cut. Of course, you've only had the flower for a few hours, which explains its condition. All that echo-jumping is playing with peoples' perceptions.

Lord Lolorito:
Claiming he is at the centre of conspiracies and is himself Ala Mhigan is drawing an unreasonably long bow. If he were Ala Mhigan, he would have been met with the same sorts of discriminations as our beloved Flame General. No, this man is a very well established merchant who has been building his wealth in the Ul'dahn heirachy for a long time. He owns Esthaimes and Sunsilk and it is in his interest to have strong trading partners. While he stands to benefit from economic activity of war, he also has a lot to lose from the elimination of a significant trading partner or if his wealth is ransacked by Garlemald.
So spy? No. Self-interested prick interested only in wealth? Yes.
Lolorito's possesion of Heartstrike is not only justified by his ownership of Esthaimes, but he may fear it being used against him (and I don't mean in a lethal manner - a financial one). If anyone is going to own the secrets of resurrecting the dead, it better be him!

The true danger facing Ul'dah:
We know that Minfilia is Ascilia, so let me pull out this quote for you:

That's right, Ascilia witnessed the Battle of Silvertear Skies, presumably with her father, who then travelled to Ul'dah to bring the dire news of the implications for the aetherial balance and expected primal activity.

The Velodyna Cosmos:

The rarity of the flower goes beyond the idea that the trade relationship between Gridania and the guild is broken.

Just an example, when seeing your flower Niellefresne shoos the female elezen out of the room. He then lies about who he is:

Niellefresne: Well come, milady, to Eshtaime's Lapidaries. I am master goldsmith and proprietor of this establishment, Niellefresne. If you would permit me, I would be happy to appraise your merchandise.

He then says that the clerk who oversees such purchases is out... so oops, no records or receipts of the transactions are taken.

If the flower was so common place and not valuable because of Gridania's frequent trade, why does he wish to conduct his business out of the eyes of others? He has no reason to be secretive and shady about the trade if the Cosmos has no value other than a pretty petal.

Lord Lolorito:

Lord Lolorito does have significance because he is part of the Syndicate and the only one we know about in the first cutscenes. The Syndicate is trying to make war by perfecting the raising of the dead. The fact that he's an important figure of Ul'dah just doesn't exclude him from being Ala Mhigan. After all, RAUBAHN is an Ala Mhigan who manages to make great wealth and becomes part of the Syndicate and the leader of the Immortal Flames. He doesn't rise because of politicking in the Syndicate either, but at the request of Thancred. In Ul'dah it doesn't matter where you are from but how much money you make.

So it's all based on actual things in the game. Unlike some of my other theories.

[Catapult]

The fact that he's an important figure of Ul'dah just doesn't exclude him from being Ala Mhigan. After all, RAUBAHN is an Ala Mhigan who manages to make great wealth and becomes part of the Syndicate and the leader of the Immortal Flames. He doesn't rise because of politicking in the Syndicate either, but at the request of Thancred. In Ul'dah it doesn't matter where you are from but how much money you make.

Not quite.

Raubahn's rise to the syndicate is seen as a scandal. The Syndicate has also structured things such that it is exceedingly difficult to make money in Ul'dah unless you already have money to begin with. The Ala Mhigan Refugees are not permitted residence inside the city and required to set up crude encampments outside town. Tensions between the two groups are high, with the Ala Mhigans frustrated at the Ul'dahns' lack of hospitality, while the Ul'dahns are frustrated at the Ala Mhigans' perceived attempts to take opportunities away from them, or freeloading if you will.

If Lolorito were Ala Mhigan, it would be an issue, causing some form of drama. We see none of that. Rather, we have NO evidence that he is of any nationality other than proud Ul'dahn, nor is there any plot-based reason for him to be anything else (now if he were Garlean, that would be a different issue). There isn't a patriotic Ala Mhigan bone in his body and the Ala Mhigans are the most patriotic of the lot. The East Aldenard Trading Company is more likely an Ul'dah-based institution by the rights of how it trades with the east, rather than coming from the east.


Now back to the Velodyna, if you are referring to its non-beauty related significance, that would be its supposed use as a ward against certain monsters. F'lhaminn wants to see that "everybody gets one" and Nielle tells Greinfarr to take one "as a precaution" before tossing his own aside as he confronts the Gobbue. Of course, that didn't stop it charging at a girl who held an entire friggin' basket of the things, so you can be the judge on how effective they really are.

As for Nielle lying about his position? Well, we already know he's a bit of a (talented) prick looking to advance himself in society. That, and he probably wants to keep the whole Velodyna bungle under wraps.

[HiirNoivl]

The Cosmos

Now back to the Velodyna, if you are referring to its non-beauty related significance, that would be its supposed use as a ward against certain monsters. F'lhaminn wants to see that "everybody gets one" and Nielle tells Greinfarr to take one "as a precaution" before tossing his own aside as he confronts the Gobbue. Of course, that didn't stop it charging at a girl who held an entire friggin' basket of the things, so you can be the judge on how effective they really are.

As for Nielle lying about his position? Well, we already know he's a bit of a (talented) prick looking to advance himself in society. That, and he probably wants to keep the whole Velodyna bungle under wraps.

It's said that the flower is a ward against monsters. But it's also said:

Thancred: ... the true value of the flower lies in its ability to move the heart to love and to long.

Monster shield... love potion... eh. /shrug

I'm not sure how Nielle's buying flowers under the disguise of Lolorito/his dad keep him advancing up the ladder? The Player is a dumb adventurer in the story who doesn't know who is who and telling you he's the proprietor of the goldsmiths guild isn't going to advance him any more than telling you that he's the Sultan. If you go and say, Niellefresne is the proprietor, they'd know you're ignorant and correct you, but it would go no farther than that.

Were he just hiding the flower to keep himself away from the incident, why not just let the lady Elezen have it? Then the transaction would be in her name, and she would remember you from that day, but not put Niellefresne's memory on top of the cosmos's. No, he wanted the flower for himself for some reason. She knows that he was after the Cosmos, Momodi told you that he was particularly interested in the flower. This wasn't the secret to be kept. But considering the rumors of the flower's use, that were blatantly false, then the use certainly seems like a bigger secret.

Not only has the flower not begun to wilt but it actually looked different.

Momodi: Oh a Velodyna Cosmos, and a fine one at that. It's not oft you see them in this color.

Is Momodi a secret horticulturalist with an interest in flowers? Why bother remarking on the color of this particular one?

The ones given out at the parade, Momodi would have been familiar with, but yours is looks different.

[NoloeTazier]

Here's my summary of the Ul'dah Storyline. Taken from Page 50

Sorry for the long post but said I would give a summary of the Ul'dah Main Quests and after I'll talk about a few more things in depth. I apologize in advance if anywhere in there I confuse you about the Echo. Minfilia kindly explains it for us below. Sorry for any typos.

Flowers for All

So we arrive in Ul'dah via a Chocobo carriage. I also noticed that Answers is playing in the background, so I'm not sure what to make of it being associated with Siren or the Mother Crystal or anyone else singing it to us. As soon as we hop off, we hear the Voice and she says "Hear.." "Feel.." "Think.." As soon as the Voice ends the main characters seem to pop out of nowhere. Thancred, Greinfarr, Popokkuli and Seserukka are on the Caravan. Ascilia and Warburton are right behind you and Ascilia notes the fireworks in the same spot as the "Echo-Dalamud." It seems the Voice has caused you to enter The Echo but I don't know how long of a jump it is. We can assume fairly recently with the events that come after.

The Parade beings and Velodyna Cosmos are being handed out by F'lhaminn, she gives Niellefresne one and then he TELLS Greinfarr to take one "just in case." Which is the first hint that the flowers are used as wards against the Goobbues. F'lhaminn hands the basket over to Ascilia and goes back to dancing. A mammet in the parade blows The Horn (will get into that later) which causes the Goobbues to go crazy and break Corguevais' spell that keeps them bound (on the circles there seems to be Eorzean script it was too tiny to read, but could be similar to "The Twelve" spell). The Goobbue (dunno what happened to the other, Greinfarr was suppose to take care of them but he runs in going "what did I miss?" So still not sure where he was) goes to attack Niellefresne and F'lhaminn but it seems to balk at the flower (probably the smell) on his shirt, then Thancred lures it away (Thancred didn't have a flower, maybe knowingly?). Thancred and yourself fight the Goobbue then it runs through the town before going head first into a wall, presumably (more later) knocking out/killing Warburton after he pushes and shields Ascilia out of the way. I'm not sure why she was that far away from the parade considering she was suppose to give out the flowers.

So Warburton is knocked out at the moment, barely hanging on for life. Niellefresne's plan didn't work out how it was suppose to and we go off to meet Momodi in the Adventurers' Guild. After this event and we "arrive" into the game, that seems to be when that Echo-event ended and we are back in the "present."

Court in the Sands

So we meet Momodi and talk to her and there's a subtle "whoosh" sound and Thancred appears and offers Momodi a flower (I presume it's a Velodyna Cosmos cause it looks like the one from the CS) which I would assume means the Parade happened recently because it's still in perfect condition. What confuses me is if it's an Echo how is Thancred talking about the same topic with Momodi and says "I saw it myself, as well" as if he overheard. In the next CS you hear the same "whoosh" and Momodi resumes the conversation and she asks to see your Velodyna Cosmos and seems surprised by the flower but didn't Thancred just give her one?

Now the Goldsmith Cutscene, probably the most confusing one of all, you show Elecotte the flower and she's surprised to see it. Then the same *whoosh* and Niellefresne appears beside you. He appraises the Velodyna Cosmos and says

Niellefresne: Hmmm... Most intriguing. Why has this blossom not yet begun to wilt?

which again gives basis to the Parade being an Echo. Then another *whoosh* and Elecotte is clearly staring at us and watching but she says

Elecotte: Sir, your merchandise? Have you brought it with you? You've already sold it? I see.

as if we hadn't just shown her the flower and seen Niellefresne buy it from us, but her next line leads me to believe that we just sold the Velodyna Cosmos to Niellefresne in an Echo (even though he questions why it hasn't wilted yet which would mean he remembers the flowers at the Parade but why one showing up later looks brand new).

Elecotte: The price of flowers continues to rise as conflicts with the beast tribes become more and more frequent. The people of Ul'dah have instead begun to settle for floral prints and patterns.

when Niellefresne just told us

Niellefresne: The absence of naturally occurring flowers in the area certainly made them valuable at one time. But they simply are not as rare since Ul'dah began to trade with Gridania.

So if it wasn't an Echo, one of them isn't telling the truth or is blinded by his noble birth and refuses to accept the Beastmen 'threat.'

Momodi sends us off to the Gladiator guild next. Yoyobina welcomes us and we begin to chat, talking about the beasts at the Parade and bragging how the Thaumaturge keep them underwraps but all bets are off in the Coliseum, when we open our mouth to explain about them breaking free, we get this response:

Yoyobina: What's that? You saw the beastie at the parade break loose? But how could...?

then the *whoosh* and Greinfarr and Papawa appear. Eventually Greinfarr asks us to participate in the Coliseum:

Greinfarr: The Coliseum's hosting a champions' tourney, and one of the fighters in the first round's lost his nerve, the craven. I was wondering if you might take to the bloodsands in his place. Yoyobina: This weakling!? But he wouldn't last five mi─ Yoyobina: Ah! Yes, yes, of course! The first round, indeed!

after the fight the reason why Yoyobina thought we were lying is because they were told that Grienfarr took care of the beasts but not about the casuality. Niellefresne meets Greinfarr and they begin to talk, Greinfarr has been threatened with exile because of the poor Coliseum games and he tells Nielle that he even fixed a few of the matches.

Part 2:

Momodi sends us off to the Mining Guild to learn how to make us some bread. There we meet F'lhaminn singing on stage and a fight begins with 2 miners and Corguevais, the miners accuse Corguevais of entering the mines without permission and causing a cave in. (Corguevais theory below). The Lala Twins throw the 2 Miners out of the guild. Corguevais seems down and tells F'lhaminn he expects to be exiled and that he must go "prepare for the coming journey." Random *whoosh* and we are back at the counter, Linette asks us to deliver a message to Camp Black Brush about the Miners stepping up enforcement of rules on Mining. F'lhammin says she will accompany us.

We arrive at Camp Black Brush and people are gathered around, there's a subtle *whoosh* and we talk to the group and Ascilia is lying on the ground, Corguevais also comes out of nowhere to join the group. One of the people tells us it was a gigantic beast and Corguevais uses Cure on her. And Ascilia attacks him upon gaining consciousness. Thancred then arrives and establishes that he was the one who sent her, because she wanted to seek out her father's 'enemy.' He then tells them all the status of Warburton and tells them where they can find him (a little guilty conscience action) and he takes Ascilia back to Ul'dah and everyone disperses, another *whoosh* and everyone is gone. F'lhaminn apologizes for something and goes to tell a man about the new Mining provisions. For some reason to talk about the cave in at the Mine is forbidden and the Helpless Hyur says:

Helpless Hyur: It is not the place of youth to fear. Should the Order at Arrzaneth Ossuary see fit to make an official proclamation, however...

Why would he need to hear an official word on the Mine before he spreads the word of the new provisions brought to him by F'lhaminn.

Off to the Frondale's Phrontistery now. Nogeloix welcomes us and thanks us for our offer to help, he then ushers us inside, but before we enter a scene with Faustigeant and Checheroya, I'm going to assume he's Popokkuli and Seserukka father because he tells Faustigeant not to worry about the cave in that his boys are looking into it. There's an Echo sound as Checheroya walks out the door, but I'm not sure what we are Echo-ing. Could be it was an Echo as we entered the instance then the seen with Faustigeant and Checheroya was the Echo'd scene, I'm not sure. Anyways, we enter Warburton's room and Ascilia and Corguevais are here, Corguevais is comforting Ascilia as she cries beside her father's bed as he is now dead. Corguevais begins to question Ascilia why her father came to Ul'dah. She says that he told her Ul'dah was dangerous (dangerous so he brings his daughter?). Faustigeant and Damielliot then enter and Faustigeant coldly tells Corguevais of the costs and that they may consider taking him outside Ul'dah's walls and leaving him for the crows and beetles. Damielliot then tells Corguevais of the religious aspects of not burying him. (Greedy Ostuary). Then Corguevais says some interesting things:

Corguevais: I never thought it would come to this. I never thought Warburton would die. I must do something!
Corguevais: I must first contact the superiors.

dun dun dun, which superiors? and another Echo sound as Corguevais walks from the room.

Golden Sacrifices

Back to our sweetheart Momodi, she tells us of a criminal exiled from the city, that the mines are off-limits and that the criminal caused a cave-in. (Corguevais?) She then tells us about the Velodyna Cosmos and it's warding ability against beasts, but a man asking about them was exiled (Thancred). An Echo sounds and Thancred appears beside us, asking about the warding capability and Momodi explains that Niellefresne made it his business to collect the flowers. (Revealed in the next Quest as to why). Momodi then tells Thancred that Niellefresnea came asking for him, that he has proof of a Garlean spies in the city. Then the next CS the Echo sounds again and Momodi 'jumps' and remembers what she wanted to tell us. She sends us to get work at the Platinum Mirage (funny how coincidences work). We meet Qoqoba inside and she begins to explain the workings and says she could introduce us to some Ul'dah elite. An outburst erupts from behind barred doors and Qoqoba rushes ahead and unlocks the door, and boom another Echo. Inside we see all our friends gathered around a table. Thancred seems to be winning every hand at the card game and Niellefresne owes him a nice chunk of gil. Thancred then decides to 'show his hand' and questions Nielle about the Garleans, he explains that he has been to the northeast and "observed firsthand the fate of Ala Mhigo with mine own eyes." (Now this can either mean Thancred was there for when Ala Mhigo was conquered or he's simply journeyed there and seen the hardships they face in the city, kids being brainwashed for example). Thancred then tells the people in the room that Warburton has died. Thancred gives the winnings to Corguevais so he may give them to Ascilia. And then we exit the Echo and we're escorted from the building.

Momodi tells us that F'lhaminn was asking about us and wants to meet us, but she's outside the city so we travel to meet her. She's singing on a cliff and denies the Lala Twins her hand in marriage. F'lhaminn then says:

F'lhaminn: Oh, the adventurer! So good of you to come all this way. I heard from Momodi that you had a Velodyna cosmos.
F'lhaminn: Such a blossom is extremely rare, and valuable besides. I once held a basket full of them, believe it or not, and passed them out to the people at a festival in town.

More proof that the Parade happened well before we entered Ul'dah. She tells us the day ended in great tragedy and then the Echo sounds as Ascilia runs into frame. Corgeuvais explains to Ascilia (and you) that he and her father were entrusted with the same mission and he gives her the money for the funeral expenses. Ascilia runs away and F'lhaminn tells him that she will explain what really happened at the Parade. Then F'lhaminn begins to talk to us and tells us:

F'lhaminn: The truth is, Ascilia's father was returning from Ala Mhigo when he was killed. He was carrying important information, but it died with him. And so now we know nothing.

So he's from Ul'dah after all. Ascilia says she was born in Ala Mhigo, I wonder if it's before or after the occupation, not sure if she's 15 or older which would mean she's born during the occupation but she would be subject to the brainwashing the Garleans were doing on the children... After telling us that we Echo-out, which is odd because she just told about Ascilia's father so maybe it was just her own thoughts as her next line is:

F'lhaminn: I apologize, my thoughts wandered for a moment... I sought you out at the Quicksand because there is a favor I would ask of you.

So maybe we can hear their thoughts as well if she wasn't just talking out loud? She then asks us to join the Thaumaturge guild and see if there's a way to converse with the dead. Off to the Thaum guild we go.


There we meet Mumepo and speak with him about our "goals." He then "hypnotizes" us and pretty much reads our mind, figuring about that F'lhaminn sent us. Apparently F'lhaminn has been...ECHO. F'lhaminn is talking to Mumepo as Ascilia is gazing at her father's casket in shock. According to Mumepo the Order bought Warburton's body, Mumepo defending the action saying he stepped forward when money was not there.Then hints to F'lhaminn that he could use his arts to 'coax' memories from Ascilia. F'lhaminn refuses but her argument is only because Ascilia is too young. Niellefresne is in the background looking on. So we decide to confront him and he vehemently jumps to conclusions and says

Niellefresne: Hear me well─I had no hand in this man's death. None!

which we know through our Echo powers is not the case, Nielle and the other nobles played an indirect part in Warburton's death. (Still in the Echo). Mumepo returns to his spot in the Ostuary and Corguevais is there kneeling before him, Corguevais claims he was an acquaintance with Warburton and that he was the cause of his death and that he wishes to settle Warburton's affairs (such a lovely word). And then the Echo finally ends. Mumepo then explains that they have no way of interacting with the dead. But that they have tried in the past but they have always ended in failure. Momodi then asks for us and we continue...

Calamity Cometh

Momodi tells us about Gladiator and Pugilist Guild members leaving the city after an Imperial supposed sighting. The Echo begins and F'lhaminn runs and talks to Rururuaji to get a Chocobo and go after Ascilia who has been taken by Corguevais, Rururuaji then glances at you and says:

Rururaji: Though, if we're rushin', I don't think two is enough weight to keep her steady. You fancy goin' for a ride, adventurer?

(Echo hasn't ended). We arrive on the scene to see Greinfarr and Niellefresne questioning Corguevais. Here I will let the text speak for itself, with a few descriptions:

Greinfarr: Release the girl, now!
Corguevais: I am only taking her back where she belongs. Her life is forfeit should she stay in Ul'dah.
Niellefresne: Corguevais... What do you know?
Greinfarr: Answer me straight, or by the gods I'll open you from throat to belly! What danger does Ul'dah face?
Corguevais: Danger enough. I would have uncovered the truth sooner, had you not killed this child's father!
F'lhaminn: I'm so sorry, Ascilia. I never thought... We never meant for...
F'lhaminn: I know this wrong cannot be righted, but I will make what amends I can, I swear to you. We can live together, just you and I, and―
Ascilia: You... You killed my father? It was you? How could you!? Get away from me! Just leave me alone! You...you murderer!
Niellefresne: The girl's welfare does not concern me. The welfare of Ul'dah, however, does.
Niellefresne: I must know of this danger you speak of. Is it the Empire? You, this girl, her father, you all hail from Ala Mhigo─that much is clear. If you know anything, I advise you to speak, and quickly.
Corguevais: The Empire? [b]***Grinning from ear to ear.
Ascilia: You don't know anything! You'll see! It's something much worse than the Empire!
Ascilia: And you're all going to die! All of you!
Corguevais: Close your mouth, and open your eyes. Take in the scene of your death. [b]*** He pulls out The Horn.
Corguevais: This is the selfsame horn you used to break my spell over the beast at the parade, is it not? [b]***Another big grin.

Corguevais' true nature has come out, having been exiled he has become very desperate in whatever mission he may have. Corgeuvais' puts The Horn to his lips and blows, the blast summons (or in my opinion angers) near by Coblyns and they come in to attack the group. Corguevais uses the distraction to hope onto one of the Chocobo carriage to escape, Ascilia chases after him (desperately, like she was suppose to go with him, as he sits on the carriage and is ready to leave, he looks back to Ascilia like he's 'sorry'). F'lhaminn is injured as Coblyns rain down ontop of her, Greinfarr proceeds to fight the Coblyns and Niellefresne asks for your strength. Corguevais has a shadow. Corguevais flees with the Lala Twins hot on his trail. The next scene Greinfarr tells the group they must take F'lhaminn to the Phrontistery quickly...and the Echo ends. The scene cuts to you being infront of Rururuaji and he asks if we are alright just as the Lala Twins return. Rururuaji greets them and they respond:

Rururaji: Master Popokkuli, Master Seserukka─welcome back, sirs. I trust all's well?
Popokkuli: It is now, thanks to us. The Phrontistery sent word, and so we returned.

Does that mean they took care of Corguevais? We then journey to the Alchemist guild (screw that spelling) to check on F'lhaminn. Upon entering we meet Damielliot, he stops and questions us.

Damielliot: Injured near the Nanawa Mines, was she? The Nanawa Mines...

And then he almost collapses, he excuses himself after blaming it on a reaction to one of his medicines. We then enter a room and inside Qoqoba has joined the Lala Twins, Greinfarr, and Niellefresne. They talk about what has just happened and question the words Ascilia told them. Qoqoba suggests the talk of danger worse than the Empire was coaxed in her from Corguevais but Niellfresne isn't convinced. Greinfarr regards that Corguevais' attire was that of the Empire (see below). Greinfarr then backs it up with the way Corguevais spoke to them, saying

Greinfarr: And his speech, I've heard its like before. Crypted talk─used by the Garleans.

(Not to be mistaken with Cryptic, I'm not sure why this word was chosen. The only definition I found for Crypted was 'Vaulted' so I can only assume they meant Crypted in a dark and dangerous way and not in the cryptic way.) Greinfarr assumes Corguevais is the spy they suspected, Niellefresne isn't convinced, Popokkuli questions well if he is and was correct what could be worse than the Garleans. F'lhaminn seems to hear them and suggests they need to talk to Thancred. They know Thancred has been exiled and look to Niellefresne, F'lhaminn asks why he was exiled and Nielle refuses to answer and turns his back, saying he will find out what the threat is himself.
As you walk from the room the Echo sounds and you see Damielliot lying upon the floor. (Sadly this is all the info I can get for this scene, I don't know if the Echo ends there or continues into the next scene).

Part 2

Momodi sends you off with information that an exile has been seen around Camp Black Brush, so you're off once again. There you meet Qoqoba and members of the Pugilist guild. You mention to Qoboba you're searching for Corguevais and the Echo sounds. Qoqoba acts like you were not there before and asks you if you've seen Thancred. No sooner than she opened her Lalalips than Greinfarr appears with Thancred. Thancred seems very off put by the ordeals he's encountered in U'ldah. Qoqoba asks Thancred if the Empire is not the danger, then what is and he says he hasn't a clue. Greinfarr warns Thancred that Warburton was the only one with information on the danger that threatened Ul'dah and that Ascilia will not talk to them, so Niellefresne means to get the information with the Thaumaturges help. They will resurrect Warburton. In this Niellefresne will atone for the role he played in Warburton's death. Thancred responds:

Thancred: I see... Well, it would seem I now have the sole answer I have long been looking for.
Thancred: Ul'dah's game of brinksmanship with Garlemald─it is all related to the perfection of this thaumaturgical resurrection technique.
Thancred: Very well. I will ask my associates to look into this danger you speak of.
Thancred: If these dark arts do bear fruit, and the dead walk amongst the living, then war will be upon us all.

(Thancred got his sole answer? Why does Thancred think the thing stopping Garleans from invading is resurrection of the dead? Are his associates The Circle of Knowing? Why is war for certain if the Thaumaturge learn how to resurrect the dead?) Thancred then asks us to accompany him to the Ostuary (but this is an Echo?). After Thancred turns to leave, the Echo ends. Qoqoba begins to speak and has forgot what she was saying, she thanks us for our help and that they have the exile they were looking for.

We wonder upon Minfilia and she questions us right away:

Minfilia: I had not expected to see you here. Have you come to pay your respects to someone?
Minfilia: Have I seen the bard Thancred?
Minfilia: Why do you ask? Has he come here?

Then an Echo begins and Minfilia is gone. Thancred comes strutting in and is surprised by us, apparently we snuck up on him. F'lhaminn arrives out of breath having heard what Niellefresne means to do to Ascilia. Qoqoba and Greinfarr are said to be "bringing down the Ostuary's seals to gain us entry," (more sealing magic) but the door to a crypt is wide open. Thancred asks for us to join him. As we get to the bottom of the stares, we see Niellefresne laying on the ground, Thancred questions who it could have been and Nielle points to a corner of the room but no one is there. Then he passes out or passes away. Ascilia is there near the open crypt and she holds out a piece of broken stone. As we reach out to touch the stone the Echo begins (whether its an Echo of Ascilia or the Stone is hard to tell), he Stone is whole in the hilt of a dagger. According to Mumuepo the power of the Stone will give him the Magic he needs. Niellefresne tells Mumuepo to hurry so he goes to retrieve the tomes he needs. Niellefresne tells Ascilia he does not care if she forgives him, he wants his questions answered then she can have him back, Ascilia stares out blankly. Niellefresne then opens Warburton's tomb and is shocked.

Niellefresne: No...
Niellefresne: This cannot be...
Niellefresne: It's impossible!

As he is then stabbed in the back by a man in a hood robe (see below). The man walks out and Ascilia sits beside the tomb, shaking. The Echo ends but with a blast, Thancred and yourself are launched away. Thancred then questions what happened and glaces at you. He says:

Thancred: You... That was your doing. The Echo... But that would mean...

then proceeds to run to the steps and out into the street. Dark clouds begin to form in the sky and then the same meteor shower forms in the sky only more vivid and bigger. Niellefresne lies on the floor, still breathing as Ascilia looks on, hoping he will live. Ascilia shouts "No" as it seems Niellefresne dies. Thancred looks on then back at the Meteor Shower then returns to the crypt. Thancred checks Niellefresne's pulse but it's no good, then he says:

Thancred: So this is the danger that threatened Ul'dah.
Thancred: Only, the shadow of this threat menaces not Ul'dah alone, but all of Eorzea.
Thancred: It is not safe here. Come, we must go.

The Echo is dangerous? The Event he saw is dangerous? Shadow...
We follow Thancred, running from the crypt, our breathing begins to become heavier and as we reach the street there's a loud noise and we faint. Blacked out we can hear the voice of Minfilia.

Minfilia: Are you alright? Can you hear me? Do not give up now!
Minfilia: We must find someone who knows this adventurer!

But didn't Thancred just run out with us, doesn't he know us? Wouldn't Ascilia? We are awaken by Momodi, she tells us that we collapsed somewhere near the Ossuary.

Momodi: Well, it's good to see you up and about again. After hearin' where you'd been, I feared a far worse fate. It ain't the most savory of places, that.

(Why would the crypt be so bad? Why would she fear a worse fate for us?) Momodi then tells us that Minfilia wishes to see us and tells us how to find the Wakin' Sands. Now it's on to the Path of the Twelve.

The Echo

Minfilia: The Echo allows you to breach the wall of a person's soul, and hear the resonations of their past. You will be there in their memories, seeing things as they saw them. You may even interact with that which lies therein. However, the past is like a stone tablet. You cannot uncarve what is already written.
Minfilia: As an unexpected side effect of the gift, it seems the ability to reach into the soul of another also allows some of us to understand their words without having to comprehend the sounds they utter. In short, the Echo has granted these fortunate souls mastery of every language existing on Hydaelyn.

Now if what Minfilia tells us about the Echo is true, then Niellefresne couldn't possibly have bought the flower from us, yet we clearly had the gil he gave us. We also help Greinfarr fend off the Coblyns after Corguevais angered them. The good thing about The Echo is there's only 2 possible choices: 1.) We are special and the basic rules that Minfilia understands do not apply to us. or 2.) The rules do apply and we just THINK we changed the outcomes.

Now on to the main theory I want to get into.

Corguevais. Outcast Thaumaturge or Imperial Spy?

• The first thing I will say about Corguevais is I tried very hard to make him an Ascian, but he has a Shadow. So he is definitely not the sandy version of Trevanchet.
• Corguevais has 2 outfits. The only difference between the outfits are the colors.
  Purple collar:
  
  
  So-called 'Imperial Garb':
  
  
  I tried to note differences in his attitude, thinking maybe it was an Imperial posing as him. But the attitudes are roughly the same, both grieve for Ascilia. Then I thought it might be an Ascian but alas both versions have Shadows.
• What was he doing in the Nanawa Mines and did he cause the Cave In? I remember when we went to the cave we helped free trapped Miners, but I cannot remember the conversations, if someone has them you are the BEST.
• Why was he at Black Brush when Ascilia chased him down to attack him? What was his relationship with Warburton and why did he not know Ascilia was Warburton's daughter?(He though she was Thancreds) Corguevais says that he had the same mission as Warburton, if Warburton was an Imperial spy why would he risk his daughter's life spying on Ul'dah?
• When Greinfarr and Niellefresne caught up with Corguevais, he was on his way to the Nanawa Mines again, what was his goal?
• Corguevais says "I never thought Warburton would die" followed by he must talk to his superiors, who are his superiors?
• Did the Lalafell Twins "take care" of him or did he get away?
• Corguevais knew the power of The Horn. (see below)
• Corgeuvais seemed to have a legitimate sense of obligation to Ascilia. Even when he flees on the Chocobo carriage, he looks back.
• He knew the Empire wasn't the biggest danger. So he seems to be in the same boat as Thancred.
• He was born in/is from Ala Mhigo.

So is he a Garlean spy? There's not enough information to have a 100% full proof answer. Greinfarr says his 'Garb is that of the Empire' but Corguevais is seen in the Parade CS as to wearing said Imperial Garb. Why would the nobles not have noticed then? Why would some random Thaumaturge from Ala Mhigo be put in charge of monsters during an Ul'dah festival that the nobles had rigged to be a spectacle that would garner them favor with the peasants. Yet, Corguevais also is not a member of the Thaumaturge guild, he neither serves Nald or Thal in the city. When he flees north of Ul'dah you could say, well maybe he's fleeing to Mor Dhona and not Nananwa Mines, at the time of the story the Imperials do not have a presence in Mor Dhona, Mor Dhona would be too deadly for anyone to journey alone. I feel if he was fleeing back to the Empire, he would have fled to The Black Shroud. So short answer: Inconclusive.

The Horn

The Horn seems to have the ability to enrage nearby monsters who hear the blast. Chocobos do not seem to be affected by it though. One thing I did notice was that the Goobbue seem to fall asleep BEFORE becoming enrage. When Corgeuvais blows The Horn, the sleeping Coblyns wake up and attack.

Who Killed Niellefresne?

I've gone through every CS in Ul'dah looking for 'shadowless.' But none exist. Everyone has a shadow.
So maybe it's Corgeuvais then? Nope. The killer is a Left Handed Hyur.

A similar sword can be seen being sold in the very first CS:

Who could this mysterious killer be? I believe the only two choices are: Someone we never met or Warburton was not dead. The quests are so incomplete it's too hard to put a finger on really what is at work. Niellefresne is "frozen" in death, Corguevais either escaped or the Lala Twins 'took care' of him, Ascilia is nowhere to be seen, and what exactly did Niellefresne see in the coffin that shocked him so much?

Let the discussion begin.

Lord Lolorito was the one who sent the assassin after Niellefresne (we learn this from the Goldsmith quest line). Nielle stole the Heartstrike Dagger from Lord Lolorito, he was going to use it on Warburton along with Spells from the Thaumaturges to speak to Warburton and learn of the 'danger' that Ul'dah would be in. But when Nielle opens the sarcophagus he sees something that shocks him, something that we have not learned about.

I still have no idea why Corguevais changes wardrobe so often, what the significance is. Corguevais as a character brings up so many questions, heck most of the Ul'dah storyline does. Ferne told us we need to be on the lookout for shadowless characters in cutscenes, the Ul'dah storyline has none. Corguevais has a shadow clearly, so his actions aren't because he's a Ascian. Greinfarr tells that Corguevais' outfit is that of a Garlean...yet the outfit he's wearing at the time is the same outfit he wears while in the opening scene in the parade.

So Corguevais is either a Garlean spy or a scapegoat. The only evidence that he's a Garlean spy stems from Greinfarr's comments and the way he acts as he "kidnaps" Ascilia. Yet as he boards the chocobo caravan he looks back in regret..so he seems bad at the time, but that gives me doubts. The Lalafell twins then hunt him down on their chocobos, and the cutscene with Rururaji they hint that they "took care of" Corguevais. So what did they do? Kill him? Did they not catch him and he actually got away? But how could a heavy caravan outrun 2 Lalafell on single chocobos.

And what happens to the Horn? The Limsa Lominsa Horn is taken by the Ascian/Ascian ally Travanchet. The Ul'dah Horn seems to cause nearby monsters to fall asleep then awaken in a rage. So it's kind of a control, but not full control.

From the storyline I (along with others help) was able to determine Ascilia was in fact Minfilia (then confirmation came from Ferne) so if she hated what Nielle and the others did to her and her father...why did she stay in Ul'dah? Did she allow F'lhaminn to take care of her after all? If she did, did she finally tell the others what the "true danger" was? Then that brings up the question..what really was the true danger if it's not the Garleans? That's where I came up with the conclusion that what she saw was the "end of the path of the Echo," one thing that Minfilia tells us about people with the Echo, that those who view the path of the Echo don't talk about what they see.

The Ul'dah storyline just brings up so many questions...

• Was Corgeuvais really a Garlean spy or a scapegoat?
• Did the Lalafell twins "take care of" Corguevais?
• Did Warburton smuggle Ascilia out of Ala Mhigo?
• What information did Warburton have? If it was so important, why didn't he go immediately go to those in power and tell them instead of visiting the parade?
• Ontop of the above, Warburton asks you during one of the instances if we know where we can get a Chocobo, he says he needs to meet an associate. Was he heading to Little Ala Mhigo? If not, who would be at the Gold Bazaar or Silver Bazaar that is more important than those in Ul'dah or the Ala Mhigans in Little Ala Mhigo?
• Why would Lord Lolorito have Niellefresne killed for taking the Heartstrike Dagger? Why is it that important? The jewel itself is then shattered when Nielle drops it on the ground after being stabbed
• Was the assassin a member of the Thaumaturge guild? The Thaumaturge guild is known for taking assassination missions and surely a member of the Syndicate could ask this of them.
• What was so shocking in Warburton's sarcophagus?
• Greinfarr spends the rest of his days as a thief, working behind the scenes to try and find a way to 'save' Nielle...by ending his frozen-death like state. Will he succeed in saving his friend? Will Lord Lolorito end him as well?
• Why did Ascilia change her name to Minfilia?
• What happened to the Ul'dah Horn? If the Lala-twins killed Corguevais why didn't they recover the Horn? If Corguevais got away and isn't working with the Ascians for the Horns, what does he plan to do with it?
• Corgeuvais says his mission is the same as Warburton. Yet Corgeuvais would have to be an established Thaumaturge in the guild to gain the ability to work in the parade and keep the Goobbues under control. Which means he would have to have been in Ul'dah for some time. If his mission is the same, is it a Garlean one? He also says Warburton is a friend, yet he does not know of Ascilia, his daughter...so what was the mission?

[Catapult]

Nielle stole the Heartstrike Dagger from Lord Lolorito.

As I understood it, Nielle was the one who made the Heartstrike Dagger. Lord Lolorito, being his patron, is thus justified in his claim of ownership of this crafted object.
People may be suspicious of Lolorito being the assassin's director, but I am yet to see any proof. I wouldn't be surprised if the assassin was actually Warburton himself - Nielle was having quite the WTF moment when he opened the coffin, as if there was something out of place. What if the body was missing?

If [Ascilia] did [stay in Ul'dah], did she finally tell the others what the "true danger" was?

I believe her work on the Path of the Twelve is testament that she did, as is Seranelian's revelation that she is one of very few who witnessed the Fall of the Keeper and thus the breaking of the primal seal, although the implications of this are complex, myriad and hard to fully comprehend, but none the less potentially fatal for Eorzeans.

What information did Warburton have? If it was so important, why didn't he go immediately go to those in power and tell them instead of visiting the parade?

As above, I believe he was a witness to the Fall of the Keeper and this was his news. But let's face it, the parade was in the way, most of Ul'dahn was watching it anyway, and would it hurt to relax for just an hour or so after a long trip by chocobo carriage?

[Anonymoose]

I recently decided that I was going to finish all 12 transcripts for the pre-Fade to White introductions in an attempt to learn more about the connections. Currently, I've got 4 left to do before I start the articles again, and am working my way through Flowers for All and Court in the Sands, which have both undergone extensive changes to more clearly fit the canon since 2010.

The Loremongers for them will, unfortunately, need to cherry-pick a bit when it comes to the transcript in order to not cause confusion, but I've found a way to make it work while removing only unnamed superfluous NPC dialoge

Example
Verb-performing Adventurer: I'm so glad you stopped to talk to me instead of that uppity jerk with the (!) above his head! I shall reward you with a lore snippet based on my subjective analysis of this scene!

Anyway, thanks for getting this conversation started so soon!

I was really surprised to see the horn so prominently displayed... but it does beg a question, now, doesn't it?

Is this the same horn from Limsa? Does that mean Ul'dah took place after Limsa? What year is this?
That last question is really grating on my nerves in terms of these three story arcs.
Really bad.

Question for Catapult Specifically: You've always mentioned that someone in this story arc specifically said Thancred's visit was in 1562. Where was this? Was it the Seranelien thing you mentioned already? Because that alone doesn't specify that a chunk of time didn't exist between the Keeper's fall and their arrival in Ul'dah.