Job Leveling / Separate Idenity

[Shurrikhan]

• Abilities and advances in jobs (as in Tactics system) based on personal story, kept in one's memory with reference to Echo.
  
• Advanced jobs are not necessarily stronger than less advanced, they just build from basics and pursue things more derivative or complex. A samurai of equal level will still likely beat an Ark Knight in a duel, unless dependent on his gear without a way to avoid an Arc Knight specialized in breaking such. But a Ark Knight will likely much more quickly and effectively turn the tide of a larger fight according to his ability set, and will make more (in terms of ability and gear effects) out of his own quests than a samurai would of his (save for perhaps duels with key personalities or characters, or certain conditions of large fights) due to his more abstract job parameters.
  
• There is a total amount of memory that a person can keep. But one can start replacing things and may even go back in his memory to attempt new pursuits.
  
• A class is not the end-all of one's potential abilities. It simply shapes how one will deal with an encounter and therefore what one will learn from it. This learning can eventually be shaped into one's own style or niche of a class, or job, or even an advanced job. (Though it is likely that these unique features will be carried over, at least in general trait, from your time prior to reaching the advanced job, rather than being learned after reaching it.)

Something like that. If possible I'd rather avoid a universal skill-tree in favor of something more individual. People may complain, but as long as they use the tools they've made for themselves well, they should be balanced. The things they don't... can fade beyond memory and be replaced.

If I'm an Arc Knight, it should say something about me as a player. If someone's going to face me and they hear that I've served with the Immortal's Merchant Guard and have been through wars against both beastman and imperials, that should also tell them something about what tricks I'm likely to have up my sleeves. If I'm a gladiator who soloed a level 40 group quest at level 30, it should say something about my persistence and precision. This of course requires increases to skill-gap and story and progression depth, but I don't think there's ever been a time where that's every been without benefit.

[Shougun]

I just wish they would make the job system like FF tactics. It's a tiered job system where leveling up low tier jobs unlocks higher tier jobs. If they make it so you can only unlock a limited amount of jobs in each tier this will make it a sort of "talent tree" system like what you are talking about.

For example they could implement a cumulative level cap. Where you can only accumulate say 800 total levels for example. In expansions they could add higher job tiers and raise the cumulative level cap.

This would make the armory system more interesting as well, because you would have to carefully plan out which jobs you want to level, and how far, in order to learn certain abilities for your main job (highest tier job).

They could even expand it to include stats, where leveling up certain jobs increases your base stats for each level you gain on that job. For example, every level you gain as a WHM increases your base MND stat.

If they do it like that, the armory system itself effectively becomes like a "talent tree" system. Where you have to carefully plan your levels in order to create the type of character you want in the end. Depending on how you distribute your levels you can be either extremely specialized or you can be more versatile. Just depends how you use your levels.

You could go really complex with the system I guess. I mean I like them in the single player games for that, the reason why I suggested here was simple though.


- I didnt want to say "remake the system" because thats what I want to say, since day 1 and never changed I always felt a FFT system, a FFXI system, just the classic FF system was far superior to what we have now. And if there was any way to reach that without tearing everything down then thats awesome - and I feel that this system could get pretty damn close to Jobs being their own (Over a longer period of time they would definitely be). I mean currently if nothing changes in the class job system then your X class spells will always go to your job and your job will or should gain spells so in 20 levels your going to have a shit ton of probably unrelated skills to the theme of the job and restricted to one set of weapons or making some werid rules to equip weapons .. just .. bleh.. lol


Maybe Yoshida has mastermind trajected the class and jobs far into the future and knows that he has 10 years of content before it collapses. But I see it collapsing at some point (without any changes made) .

The available complexity and making choices or not is something the system can do, but it wasn't my main point. My main point is I don't like the current system lol and while I know many do, I also know many that dont. Its definitely not a 90% like it kind of thing (at least from random game talking and those who are willing to talk about jobs on the forums). So here the old system isnt destroyed but a new growth system is added to jobs so they can build more separate from classes, and are not restricted to what classes are because classes are restricted more then just weapons because of how they behave.

[Radacci]

i'm quite ok with the armory system really.
classes are a bit more generic, and offers wider options, while jobs are more specific, and powerful in certain area.
my only problem is that lv 50LNC=lv50 DRG; and DRG being quite limited in the skills it gets (all jobs for that matter; they only get 5 each)
So i would want to see the jobs as separate, and you lv them separate; and they have 16+ skills of their own. From looking at the old 1.0 system, i thought there was so many interesting skills back then, it's sad they are gone.
It would be nice if for example CNJ had some basic elemental skills like then, and you unlock Elementalist, that can use the more powerful element spells. Dark/Umbral BLM was interesting too.
But in general i think it's good that lancer is more generic, and can use cross class skills to greater extent than DRG. Otherwise DRG would make LNC Obsolete.

Crystarium system might be nice, if it had more *branches* Or Grid Sphere; you develop in different directions, choosing if you wanna start out defensively or offensively; which skills you wanna learn first. Maybe going for Fire build early on, for AOE party grind.

[Mychael]

I'd be fine with leveling the normal way (as opposed to a crystarium/grid/board), but I do wish you had to level them.

Right now, each class only has one job. But in theory, that will change.

So by unlocking WHM and taking your CNJ's level to 50 as a WHM, you have CNJ50. Later in the game, SE introduces Elementalist, and after doing 5 quests, you're 50 ELE as well. Then, SE throws Green Mage into the mix. 5 more quests and you're at max level.

I feel like these are distinct jobs that we should have to level somehow.

[Elexia]

No the point is the system give you freedom to become anything or do anything under one class right?

This didn't work. I hope you didn't unlock Dragoon on your Lancer, then.

[Zetsumei_Tsunarashi]

I'd be fine with leveling the normal way (as opposed to a crystarium/grid/board), but I do wish you had to level them.

Right now, each class only has one job. But in theory, that will change.

So by unlocking WHM and taking your CNJ's level to 50 as a WHM, you have CNJ50. Later in the game, SE introduces Elementalist, and after doing 5 quests, you're 50 ELE as well. Then, SE throws Green Mage into the mix. 5 more quests and you're at max level.

I feel like these are distinct jobs that we should have to level somehow.

Yep. this is the problem with current class system imo.

There's really no room to branch out from the classes without making the jobs seem shallow. Currently jobs are just the same as classes but with a few extra abilities added on. Implementing anything other than an entirely new class/job combination will just seem like a slight variation of the same old class.

Bard is the perfect example of this flaw. The bard we currently have is just an archer with some bard "songs" attached to it. It hardly resembles a bard class that I think most people were expecting.

[Dzian]

Yep. this is the problem with current class system imo.

There's really no room to branch out from the classes without making the jobs seem shallow. Currently jobs are just the same as classes but with a few extra abilities added on. Implementing anything other than an entirely new class/job combination will just seem like a slight variation of the same old class.

Amen to that

[AdorraEloom]

Interesting idea but I don't think it would work in ARR. Jack of all traits master of non.

[Shougun]

Interesting idea but I don't think it would work in ARR. Jack of all traits master of non.

So confused how would this be a jack of all traits? Please elaborate

But you guys are hitting on the head why I suggested this - to not destroy the armory system but to allow jobs to separate and better define themselves.

You guys can suggest other ideas here too, thats what I tried to say in the first sentence of my OP lol - all I want is to see jobs be themselves. Sure there are some thematic similarities between say GLD PLD, MRD WAR but in 5 years and duo jobs later I can imagine nothing but a cluster fck (the level crossing over, multiple jobs instant leveling, too many unrelated abilities coming in, forever stuck to the same weapon, no style and play style choices, the job has suffered an identity loss to blend into its class, and so forth).

The simplest, most desirable answer I keep returning to is - make jobs their own identity. And with a grid or something like it you could make a visual understanding of how the jobs start from a class but quickly stray away with all their new ability unlocks and abilities they cant get from classes - at level 50 they'd have their own special set of passives abilities and weapons.

And you can do things like choice (but dont have to, thats not my purpose of suggesting this system - though I think choice is important)... like talent trees but those have to be very carefully structured so you don't end up with "the best one" (and only one). I'd call a talent tree a success if you had at least 3 "the best ones" that can be used interchangeably.

[Jynx]

but a online game players would always find the best set up and make other use it.

Min-Maxing happens no matter what the system is.

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Now as to the main OP.

I don't care what system they implement as long as jobs are not tied and hamstringed by the class system. It does nothing but limit how unique the jobs themselves can be due to the intrinsic nature of requiring that job to be based around the class and it's abillities.

No matter how you paint it any class spawning from Gladiator will have access to all of the same base skills requiring them to be a tank of some sorts, and restricting any "One handed sword" class to be just that.

Any class coming from Archer will require the use of a ranged weapon, and the skills that come base with archer.

Any class spawning from Thaumaturg will require the use of the base elemental wheel that Thaum comes with.

Right now there is very little the developers can do to work around the class system, personally I hope it burns in a fire during Beta phases and we just get classic Jobs that are unique unto themselves and not chained down by a class.

Why must a Blue Mage spawn from a Gladiator and use Gladiator skills? wouldn't it be better to focus a Blue Mages skill tree on just the Blue Mages unique abillities and lore?

Why must a Time mage be tied down to either Conj-Thaum-Arcanist skills?

Do you see where I'm coming from instead of using all the skill slots each class gets to make unique skills the developers need to keep everyones skills linked to their cliche class origins.