Job Leveling / Separate Idenity

[indira]

Umm. IF all your skills and traits change to something completely different when you switch from a class to a job then whats the point in tying them together. i'm a gladiator i know sentinal but im a paladin suddenly i forgot sentinal and learnt something different...

if you're going to do that then you may as well just have every job as a totally seperate entity and scrap the armory all together.

whats the point in having jobs? you only get 5 skills

mnk is not the same as pug, JOB's are the spirits of something else.

[Shougun]

well the the grid kills the point of having choice, and a waste of time to make. they should just leave it like it is, no choice on where the job can grow that way no problems in the future.

Well there are more reasons then choice for what I suggested - but also keep in mind I suggested all three.

Normally I try to be more specific for what I suggest but honestly all I want to see is jobs be their own ideinity like -everyone- here is saying. I dont care how, I just want it to happen. I saw this as 1 of the many ways you could do it.

Now the reason why I suggested this one is because Jobs MUST take some of the classes skills like what is a WHM without cure? Well that's in CNJ. So WHM must take some of CNJ skills but you dont want all of them - and how do you tell the players which ones are coming and which ones are going. On a really long tooltip? Soulstone information is 5 pages long? lol I didnt think that was a good idea.

So I said what if we made it visual. Here you could see the WHM Diverge by taking new abilities and passives, and converge by taking old class skills. When you first start the grid, sphere, thing, you will have some of it pre filled out - this would explain the basisi. And the growth would help maintain logical coherency on the growth of the class. (Not only would this help explain gameplay mechanics but you could make the gameplay mechanic itself fun as well as the fact that it fits in nicely - since the soulstones are presumably solid aether similar to the aeteherytes.. so its like you are growing your special materia that captured the soul rather then the experience of an event)

Otherwise you will have random spells coming in and not coming in and players will be like wtf? Also using this grid allows you to break some rules like adding weapons and such (all you would need is a sphere equipped so it doesn't change you into another class).

Now in the Crystarium and the Sphere grid you have great opportunity for choice and act like real talent trees. But that wasnt the main point of my post. I like choice, I like making my choices and yes as many pointed out its hard to design multiple choices rather then one best choice (but when it happens its worth it).

All I care is to logically explain how the jobs can separate and yet lay dependent on, while not telling Yoshida to do everything over again ("redesign all characters"). You can start them all from fresh and I'd like that too, but I feel that would require more work and even work into the armory system. While this grid system would take a new UI element you wouldn't have to redesign the classes, just bits and pieces / reorganization of the jobs.

i said this when the jobs came along.
when you turn into a job ALL the skills need to change to fit that job. other wise were stuck with class version 1.5

If all skills changed it would help out logically, because only some changing would be a logical inconsistency that would look like the dev didnt polish the game. But then how would you make the white mage adopt cure without changing it?

I suppose you could make the Jobs their own but only take 5 skills from classes (so the ratio is flipped).


Also this grid/cryst/sphere system lets Jobs level on their own - making the duo jobs from class system possible for two reasons 1 jobs can be their own 2 jobs are further their own as they level on their own

[indira]

If all skills changed it would help out logically, because only some changing would be a logical inconsistency that would look like the dev didnt polish the game. But then how would you make the white mage adopt cure without changing it?

I suppose you could make the Jobs their own but only take 5 skills from classes (so the ratio is flipped).


Also this grid/cryst/sphere system lets Jobs level on their own - making the duo jobs from class system possible for two reasons 1 jobs can be their own 2 jobs are further their own as they level on their own

thats thinking in the same old box, reason why some many games in general are clone with different graphics. people keep wanting the same old systems that already exist. and you can change anything.

they need to make classes = jobs other wise no one will care for the classes when they get the job.
either way nothing like that is gonna happen this game is being made for quick play, days of the time sinks are dead.

[Shurrikhan]

No because at the end people would make the best skill to be unlock so it end up being useless. It's works fine in a offline game but a online game players would always find the best set up and make other use it.

"Non-optimal" specs will often outdo "perfect" specs in the hands of an equally skilled player who better considers the fight at hand, or the general needs of fights outside of the "perfect" conditions for dealing damage. Bits of utility can drop dps requirements to deal with harmful adds, reduce replenishment effects needed, improve closing time, allow ghost-tanking, any manner of things impossible in a "perfect" spec. And better yet, the players who make them know just how to use every trick they've picked.

With any decent depth of fight mechanics, a forum-spec user will rarely be able to get the potential out of his "perfect" spec that he or she ought to, because it was designed for the needs and conditions of a very advanced player, hence its dps reach. And even they will admit that outside of their usual raid teams, they'd often side more with other factors, and that is often only because they know other players have that utility that they can invest themselves so finely without being useless.

Some people are good at being dps bombs, some are great supporters. As long as design is decent, "perfect" speccing is a matter of being part of some vaguely defined group that isn't in overuse compared to the needs of the game's raid composition designs or the fight specifically, and fits what you are good at (and likely enjoy as a result).

[Jynx]

but a online game players would always find the best set up and make other use it.

Min-Maxing happens no matter what the system is.

--

Now as to the main OP.

I don't care what system they implement as long as jobs are not tied and hamstringed by the class system. It does nothing but limit how unique the jobs themselves can be due to the intrinsic nature of requiring that job to be based around the class and it's abillities.

No matter how you paint it any class spawning from Gladiator will have access to all of the same base skills requiring them to be a tank of some sorts, and restricting any "One handed sword" class to be just that.

Any class coming from Archer will require the use of a ranged weapon, and the skills that come base with archer.

Any class spawning from Thaumaturg will require the use of the base elemental wheel that Thaum comes with.

Right now there is very little the developers can do to work around the class system, personally I hope it burns in a fire during Beta phases and we just get classic Jobs that are unique unto themselves and not chained down by a class.

Why must a Blue Mage spawn from a Gladiator and use Gladiator skills? wouldn't it be better to focus a Blue Mages skill tree on just the Blue Mages unique abillities and lore?

Why must a Time mage be tied down to either Conj-Thaum-Arcanist skills?

Do you see where I'm coming from instead of using all the skill slots each class gets to make unique skills the developers need to keep everyones skills linked to their cliche class origins.

[Shougun]

Min-Maxing happens no matter what the system is.

--

Now as to the main OP.

I don't care what system they implement as long as jobs are not tied and hamstringed by the class system. It does nothing but limit how unique the jobs themselves can be due to the intrinsic nature of requiring that job to be based around the class and it's abillities.

No matter how you paint it any class spawning from Gladiator will have access to all of the same base skills requiring them to be a tank of some sorts, and restricting any "One handed sword" class to be just that.

Any class coming from Archer will require the use of a ranged weapon, and the skills that come base with archer.

Any class spawning from Thaumaturg will require the use of the base elemental wheel that Thaum comes with.

Right now there is very little the developers can do to work around the class system, personally I hope it burns in a fire during Beta phases and we just get classic Jobs that are unique unto themselves and not chained down by a class.

Why must a Blue Mage spawn from a Gladiator and use Gladiator skills? wouldn't it be better to focus a Blue Mages skill tree on just the Blue Mages unique abillities and lore?

Why must a Time mage be tied down to either Conj-Thaum-Arcanist skills?

Do you see where I'm coming from instead of using all the skill slots each class gets to make unique skills the developers need to keep everyones skills linked to their cliche class origins.

Exactly - one of the reasons why I think the system will collapse. Every skill from the class and the whole general idea of the class transfers to the job but the job isnt the class. Its a forced situation. Some of the classes being like the job helps it work better but in the end after many levels have been added.. its still going to be a case where some abnormal retcon work will need to take place (imo). Falling even faster if we have duo jobs from one class..

You can start to make class only abilities and then replace those as it transfers into the job - but the consistency and logical flow would be minimum from this. That is the reason why I suggested a visual level system which would easily explain the changes, reductions, and additions. Though the best flow would just to start it from scratch.

[Dzian]

stuff.

So i just typed a post a somehow closed the damn window. then i reopened the browser and find you said everything i was going to

saves me typing it again lol

[Aldora]

I would prefer the old method, where you had to purchase your spell scrolls in a shop, or get them via quest. I loved going to the FF11 shop to buy new spells and see which spells I could buy on which levels.

[Shougun]

I would prefer the old method, where you had to purchase your spell scrolls in a shop, or get them via quest. I loved going to the FF11 shop to buy new spells and see which spells I could buy on which levels.

I think you can do that either way (for classes and jobs) :P


This system is more then just getting new abilities though its about changing old abilities and giving a large amount of freedom to the devs to follow a tight thematic view of each job rather then having the classes stifle the job (imo, which is why I and at least most people I see dislike the current system).

@Shougun ya i understand what you mean but at the end not even half of the spells unlock would be used. People would find the best setup and only use that too SE update then they make a new set up. That my point i love for a system like that but it just going to be end up being pointless no one going to use it to the fullest.

There is always maxing, but giving more options particularly weapons and making all stats useful will add more max options. You'll never escape maxing, but you can make many fun maxing options.

This system is just a way to stem away from classes and letting jobs logically break away. A, the leveling system is different giving to the idea they are different, B, its jobs / classes so we know they are different, C, the leveling system provides ways to modify farther then a normal system (auto leveling) allows.

So its more like a suggestion to give more tools to the dev to get away from being locked into classes. Since I dont play FF games for the armory I honestly give two shits about the armory lol - I love jobs and I will be sad to see Jobs stifled in their natural creativity and thematic views because of the armory system (classes).

But I understand your fear of maxing and not getting to play the fun style you like.

[Zenaku]

I think you can do that either way (for classes and jobs) :P


This system is more then just getting new abilities though its about changing old abilities and giving a large amount of freedom to the devs to follow a tight thematic view of each job rather then having the classes stifle the job (imo, which is why I and at least most people I see dislike the current system).



There is always maxing, but giving more options particularly weapons and making all stats useful will add more max options. You'll never escape maxing, but you can make many fun maxing options.

This system is just a way to stem away from classes and letting jobs logically break away. A, the leveling system is different giving to the idea they are different, B, its jobs / classes so we know they are different, C, the leveling system provides ways to modify farther then a normal system (auto leveling) allows.

So its more like a suggestion to give more tools to the dev to get away from being locked into classes. Since I dont play FF games for the armory I honestly give two shits about the armory lol - I love jobs and I willl be said to see classes stifled in their natural creativity and thematic views because of the armory system.

But I understand your fear of maxing and not getting to play the fun style you like.

with the job system they said they adding more job to each class making them each different. Sure atm they only have 5 spell but at level 65 that would be over 15 spells more then enough to make two jobs link to one class very different if that what you looking for overall it's a nice system you talking about but i just don't see them making it work for a online game. Or waste there time rebuilding the Armory system