Paladin vs Warrior - ARR better set roles!

[Lucke]

I could be totally confused, but does anyone remember the "Don't Pull with Provoke" thing? Was that fixed?

For those that don't know, your first attack didn't give any hate, so if you pulled with voke, for example, you wouldn't get the hate from that first provoke. You would provoke some mob, then the BRD would get aggro off you the first time they attack.

[Shougun]

Altena you just descibed how horrible a WAR is (crap damage compared to others and bad at end game tanking).

Lol. I agree there are a lot of areas END game that PLD soar - but they flunk in hilarious style until then. And a few areas that WAR still excel in like multi target trash.


All in all the tanks imo are not well balanced. PLD needs more in X and WAR in Y and instead of trying to hybrid balance - just make a tanking class that works on different styles of play* :P


*How you play, not how the character is balanced. I hope some people in SE play MOBAs...

[Altena]

I won't quote because I am lazy but..

Yeah I did basically say how WAR is basically a hybrid DD / Tank.. Doesn't compare to the other more specific jobs.

But yes when I talk about jobs, I talk about a job in its entirety, with all abilities and traits (ie level cap / end game). EXP parties I will admit, PLD has always been pretty trashy but in saying that - I don't really consider that to be where the job really defines itself. I mean MNK is almost as good a tank as WAR and GLD if you are talking about EXP parties.. At that sort of level / stage you don't want extremely defined roles as it allows very little flexibility.. However the EXP system is changing dramatically so there goes that anyway..

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

I think a few more enmity / damage mitigation skills for PLD would be enough but to be honest I think it is rather working as intended :/

[Shougun]

I won't quote because I am lazy but..

Yeah I did basically say how WAR is basically a hybrid DD / Tank.. Doesn't compare to the other more specific jobs.

But yes when I talk about jobs, I talk about a job in its entirety, with all abilities and traits (ie level cap / end game). EXP parties I will admit, PLD has always been pretty trashy but in saying that - I don't really consider that to be where the job really defines itself. I mean MNK is almost as good a tank as WAR and GLD if you are talking about EXP parties.. At that sort of level / stage you don't want extremely defined roles as it allows very little flexibility.. However the EXP system is changing dramatically so there goes that anyway..

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

I think a few more enmity / damage mitigation skills for PLD would be enough but to be honest I think it is rather working as intended :/

Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank. But I also believe that PLD shouldnt be seen as total blow except for bosses >.> lol. Or WAR seen for blow except for large groups of trash mobs.


I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

[Altena]

I mean PLD for caravan? LOLOLOL

Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

Well they should just make WAR as you said then lol, I wouldnt mind him either way slow heavy hitter or a rage tank.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

[Shougun]

Any melee + caravan was garbage in comparison.
The worst thing about 1.x caravan & melee was having to get enough TP for a weaponskill before the mobs died. Once those mobs died, you are back to 0 TP. Obviously won't be the case in 2.0 but any melee was as bad as PLD in caravan IMO.

Melee is bad compared to mages but I've seen some ok melee - however I think a gatherers wrist flick would have done more then paladin lol


But I can see it not being the best example lol


How about this: -any- leve that didnt involve a boss.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

Yeah you dont want to flood the market, I'm not sure 2 tank options would do that but you can always have more dps :P

I think the tanks just need a way to bump up their DPS enough that no one is like dammit PLD could you slow us down any more? In MOBAs most tanks can also deal a decent amount of damage - "tanky dps" being that almost annoying term to hear lol.

[Duelle]

TBH I don't want WAR to be a tank. I would much rather see them more as a brute DD - slow, heavy attack speed, high damage and sure some AOE / devastating weaponskills. They should be a heavy AoE DD whereas at the moment they are far too "inbetween".

This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

I'll admit that the current approach to WAR is iffy because of the stances. Where most games would allow the WAR to grow depending on which stance they prefer to play as, XIV is hindered on top of that by the armoury system. Frankly, if we're to keep the armoury system they need to chose a role and go with it. I'd prefer it to be tank just because we do need something more than just PLD for that role.

Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.

In my opinion, due to a limited job selection we have 1 too many tanking style jobs. Current content is capped at 8 players, which leaves room for truthfully only 1 tank in the party (aside from cutter's perhaps). You can never really have too many different types of DD's in any shape and form because there are so many ways you can "deal damage". Tanking however is rather limited, and their are limited slots in an 8 person party for a tank (1).

You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

[Altena]

This problem with this line of thinking is that reducing the number of tanks in-game is bad in the long run.

What I meant by my post was that there are currently too many tanking classes in comparison to how many total jobs there are presently.. I feel that 1 tanking job is sufficient considering we only have 7 (soon 8) different jobs. Certainly as the 24-man content is released, and more jobs start to make an appearance, there is room for different tanking jobs but I don't think there should be as many tanking jobs as their are pure DPS jobs (which currently there are). However once again, there is only room in a party for a very limited number of tanks, and varying that too much will cause people to cry about "not playing their main jobs" as the slots are limited.

Now if the devs were to introduce SAM or BST as tanks to take up the spot on the tank roster occupied by WAR, I might be willing to support making WAR a full on DPS.
You're going by the logic that divided people between "blood" tanking and Utsusemi tanking, which is fallacious given that the tank role is pretty much straightforward no matter how you slice it. The main difference between tanks should be along the lines of flavor rather than mechanics. That's what distinguishes the guy with a sword and shield from the guy with holy magic and a shield from the guy with a two-hander. You stray from that and you start forcing people to cherry pick jobs for their group comps.

I agree with this, and is pretty much what I already said. There are many different ways of dealing damage, however taking it is rather limited.

8 is an iffy number for a full party, mostly due to what it allows in a group comp. Ideally that could mean two tanks, two healers, a bard, and space for 3 DPS. Limiting groups to one tank limits the developers as far as what can be done with encounters that require a full party. Sure, stuff like behest wouldn't require much, but a dungeon boss with mechanics might require an additional tank either for adds or taunting off each other or something to make the encounter interesting.

To be honest, I would rather 1 tank with 30 DD's taking down an enormous mob.. Call me a traditionalist but a lot of "dual tank" mechanics end in a main tank holding the boss, and the off-tank sitting in a corner voking adds all night. It never ends in a fun battle mechanic for the off-tank.

[Duelle]

To be honest, I would rather 1 tank with 30 DD's taking down an enormous mob.. Call me a traditionalist but a lot of "dual tank" mechanics end in a main tank holding the boss, and the off-tank sitting in a corner voking adds all night. It never ends in a fun battle mechanic for the off-tank.

Having multiple tanks is much more than that.

Let's take the example of Four Horsemen in Naxxrammas. You assign a tank to the two mobile horsemen (Thane Korth'azz and Baron Rivendare), who place a stacking mark on anyone within 20 yards of them that deals damage. The tanks ideally have to switch between Thane and Baron at around 4 marks, because if the stacks get higher the amount of damage it deals can easily kill them.

You also have stuff like Twin Emperors in AQ40, where the tanks HAVE to keep both mobs apart because if you let them get within...I think it was 30 yards of each other, they heal themselves.

Then you have encounters where you have to keep mobs in place like the opening phase for Thaddius, which requires both tanks ensuring that Feugen and Stalagg stay on their platforms while getting punted from one side of the room to the other.

Then you have stuff like Iron Council between keeping mobs apart and phase 3 Steelbreaker having a move that is a guaranteed tank kill (giving the raid a sort of time limit on killing him).

Sure, you also have stuff like switching the same boss because of a stacking debuff (Gorthok the Impaler) as well as having the second tank help pick up adds (Freya), but a raid encounter with multiple tanks is not always like that.

[Skinwalker]

If you want a different tanking style add Ninja with shadows :3