CG Midlander

[Soukyuu]

Compare the pair:

As you can see, the character model of the ascian is explicitly not impacted by the environment's lighting. If anything, it is actually brighter at night, but that may just be contrast playing with my eyes.

Now let us look at Odin in the footage we have of him.

That is clearly the impact moonlight we are seeing. Ergo, I have trouble drawing the conclusion that Odin is of an ascian nature.

I don't know, that could be just ffxiv 1.0 engine messing up. On the other hand, if you look at their hands, Odin's seems to be exactly the same shape as the Ascian's.

Though, wasn't Odin usually the Primal of the Humans?

...I didn't know they changed the name of Gridania to Grandia. Must have happened while we were in that aether rift...

[Anonymoose]

I've always been better at disproving something than proving it, I guess.

Falsification is the best approach to any theory or belief; if you're not ready to welcome having your ideas and faith challenged, you barely have the right to claim them as your own in the first place, because you don't truly care about nurturing their quality. Have at 'em! Worst case scenario I end up being totally full of crap and we get closer to the truth.

As you can see, the character model of the ascian is explicitly not impacted by the environment's lighting. If anything, it is actually brighter at night, but that may just be contrast playing with my eyes.

For the sake of playing Devil's Advocate, I'd like to throw out a possible way to explain this one. The Ascian cutscene is rendered real-time via in-game materials, i.e. 3D renders from DAT packets. These are subject to whatever settings you currently have running. The Ascian seen here just appears to have all data settings related to shadows disabled entirely. What you're seeing might just be the raw Zbrush (or whatever they used here) independent of any lighting effects.

The Odin cutscene, however, was pre-rendered as a CGI video. This is very different.

I'm not saying I'm ready to buy into the Odin = Ascian relationship, as Ascians themselves seem to be not-of-this-world and thus would probably not worship such deities, but if it were this case, this would explain the discrepancy.

So that's 12, unless Moogle King wasn't really a primal and we're waiting on something else.

While I also think we should leave the number capless, we might have a little wiggle room even if you cap at twelve.

[T]hey summoned forth their legendary king as they would a primal, and seemingly upon a whim <...> remaining in our dimension requires that Good King Moggle Mog XII devour copious amounts of aetheric energy. <...> The primal must be vanquished, that the power of the crystals might be allowed to nourish the land.

At first he clearly says that Moggle is a simple legendary king, summoned AS IF he were a primal. Right afterward he directly calls him a primal, of course, but I think this might have been an accidental contradiction. Moreover, unlike the other primals, Moggle is the same species as his worshipers, which is a solid distinction from the other primals.

Also, Alexander is pure speculation at this point. There's no evidence he's going to be in this game as of now, but he's my own little pet theory - not so much in an "I'm telling you guys, just watch" capacity, but more of an "If it turns out I'm right, holy shit the street cred." capacity.

On the other hand, if you look at their hands, Odin's seems to be exactly the same shape as the Ascian's.

Same style definitely; though I do believe I see a fifth finger on Odin and not on the Ascian.

Though, wasn't Odin usually the Primal of the Humans?

I'm not sure the summons have ever been so specifically aligned before. Far as I know, Odin was just... enemy of Alexander, lightning-hater, cleave-shit-in-two guy.

...I didn't know they changed the name of Gridania to Grandia. Must have happened while we were in that aether rift...

The 1.X factors changed so much so fast that I think the FFXIVMAPS people just gave up and ditched. Every now and then there's some activity on the site that leads me to believe it might breathe again, though, lol.

[HiirNoivl]

Was building off what you said about the Ascian calling the primal that scared the Garleans away.

And your Olympian / Titan comparison.

I wish I had time to really go deeper into it and come up with my own theories but I'm more inclined to make stuff up instead!

[finiteHP]

If I remember correctly, both Bahamut and Odin have been referred to as Elder Primals. What makes them Elder? Is it just that they are more powerful than the "lesser" primals? My first thought was that maybe they interact with aether in a different way without the need for crystals to be summoned. This would mean that they don't have to influence Eorzean followers into gathering crystals leading to the possibility of them being unaligned with a tribe. The dragons could have started worshipping Bahamut because he is a dragon instead of him needing them. Of course that leads into how the beast tribes came to worship any of the primals. Were the primals at one time loose in Eorzea and then later banished?

Back to my original point (what makes elders special). Since Bahamut was actually sealed within Dalamud, he has been physically manifest since Allagan times. Maybe the length of time they have been manifest is what makes them elder. This would mean that Odin has also been hanging around for a long time. That would also work for the whole scaring away the Garleans before the summoning started.

[Anonymoose]

What makes them Elder?

As far as I know... we have no idea! Elder usually says older, better, stronger - so let's go with that! One thing I've noticed is their placement on the elemental wheel. Odin and Bahamut appear to be astral and umbral - for all we know, one of them is a freakin' "good" guy.

My first thought was that maybe they interact with aether in a different way without the need for crystals to be summoned.

That would put quite a spin on things, yeah? Pretty much the core definition of a primal (aside from my snarky definition of "starts cults, gives pretentious monologues") is that they're from the void and require such gifts of aetheric energy. Who's to say where they'd get it otherwise? Darnus basically just willed aether to Bahamut (oversimplified, yes), so I'd say this idea is up for grabs, lol.

Of course that leads into how the beast tribes came to worship any of the primals. Were the primals at one time loose in Eorzea and then later banished?

This hasn't been explained at all. My personal theory is they reach out in non-physical form to start with - voices, ideas, metaphysical changes, gifts of power and knowledge, something. The more the newborn cult takes hold of these things and returns the favor with aether, the more the situation escalates until you get full blown Garuda throwing entrails everywhere and screeching. I'm betting that the "Hear... Feel... Think" and the Echo is exactly that ... we're getting the very first experiences of how they latch onto a society. Who is it? ... SIREN! (Kidding, kidding. We've beaten that dead horse to a pulp - but if it's right I expect everyone to mail me one gil. Just one.)

Were they banished? Maybe! Before The Twelve, it's possible that this process ran rampant and was later expelled by "better" gods. This is all speculation, but it fits the Greek influence the game is based on very well (i.e. the twelve Olympians overthrowing the Titans).

Back to my original point (what makes elders special). Since Bahamut was actually sealed within Dalamud, he has been physically manifest since Allagan times.

This one MIIIIIGHT not be true. We don't know for sure, but I currently believe that he didn't truly physically manifest until Darnus force-fed him aether from ERRRRYTHING. Errything from crystals (Mor Dhona, Toto-rak, Xel...however you spell that), to the dead primals themselves. I think his fresh manifestation is part of what let him break free.

[Mjollnir]

This one MIIIIIGHT not be true. We don't know for sure, but I currently believe that he didn't truly physically manifest until Darnus force-fed him aether from ERRRRYTHING. Errything from crystals (Mor Dhona, Toto-rak, Xel...however you spell that), to the dead primals themselves. I think his fresh manifestation is part of what let him break free.

See now I'd interpreted it that he had been imprisoned physically manifest, which was why he couldn't be re-summoned by his tribe; the best way to deal with a primal (well done Allagans). The distance away from the planet had meant it was hard for him to absorb aether from his followers until that cunning ray-gun was invented by Cid's father, which gave him strength enough to move his prison back toward the planet. When he was close enough, he could absorb aether fully again and POOM.

If only we'd let poor Atomos do his job and suck up all the aether before B'hom got here. That'll learn us!

Anyway, so what makes you think that Bahamut wasn't manifest? Strongest argument against is that his tribe would have just re-summoned him, unless you're proposing that Dalamud somehow captured an unsummoned primal essence... That would just be SILLY!

[Anonymoose]

If only we'd let poor Atomos do his job and suck up all the aether before B'hom got here. That'll learn us!

I was under the impression that Atomos boned us BIG TIME by sucking up all that aether. The way I interpreted it, Midgardsormr's fall threw Mor Dhona's aetheric network into chaos to begin with, turning it into a crystal wasteland and making certain aether centers unstable and likely to rip into the void (the Darkhold's utter fabric-of-reality collapse, for one example). Then Darnus comes along and steals a metric ton of crystals, has us kill the primals, etc. and sends all that to Bahamut. This rapid shift in the network tore the void open and Atomos came through, sucking up so much of what aether was left and drawing in so many other voidsent that we were unable to use any for ourselves to manifest The Twelve, causing Louisoix's ritual to fail.

That's how I took it, anyway.

Anyway, so what makes you think that Bahamut wasn't manifest? Strongest argument against is that his tribe would have just re-summoned him, unless you're proposing that Dalamud somehow captured an unsummoned primal essence... That would just be SILLY!

To start with, we know that in the very same year that the Garleans took Silvertear, they attempted to awaken Bahamut with another lunar transmitter, resulting in a red moon and some catastrophe (presumably a freaking gigaflare) wiping out their town. Keep in mind what's going on at that time - Bahamut was far away and with the help of a lunar transmitter, was able to destroy a town.

If he was manifest the entire time, why was he not just launching flares every time he felt particularly jaunty? Was he manifest, but overhwelmingly physically weak? That's certainly one possibility, but the assumption you call silly is actually my first impression, LOL.

The Allag had some pretty weird technology; who's to say they couldn't trap a primal's voidsent essence and send it far away from aether sources? That's what I took Dalamud to be in the first place.

Aether and primals always have the same relationship - they need to use it to maintain manifestation. Every single time we talk to Lou, he tells us the danger of summoning ANY god, be it primal, moogle king, or Twelve themselves, is the drain of the crystal's life-force that our planet needs. The longer they're manifest, the more we're blowing through, the less the planet has, the more we're screwed. That's why he wants us to defeat them ASAP. Funny enough, he states this most clearly towards the Moogle.

Therefore, if it's true that the longer they're manifest, the more aether they need - and we send Bahamut far away from aether - does it not make sense that he would eventually dissipate? If this dissipation would give him the freedom to return somewhere else, would we not need to trap that essence somehow? Perhaps by some kind of ... MAGIC (long-lost technology)?

That was my impression anyway. We'll figure out what it is soon enough; ARR has a questline for this very topic.

One of the biggest things that will settle this is "Who knew Bahamut was Bahamut?" and "Who was in charge of the Citadel incident?" The answers to those alone could change the meaning behind the entire thing.

[Digirotta]

Welp, read the whole thread. T'was fun.

What started bugging me, is the origin of the Primals. I mean, sure, some of them bursted out the aetherstream when Midgarsormr took down Agrius and broke the seal under the lake. But then i remember seeing a cutscene (Legends Adrift) with Sisipu, who said:

Sisipu: Legend has it that long, long ago, the world was a parched wasteland, filled with nothing but fire and rocks. Llymlaen, the Navigator, saw this and created a giant serpent to spout forth water and create Eorzea's oceans. But soon she realized that the serpent would never stop, and that all the land would one day disappear beneath the waves, so she sealed the beast away within a floating island called Swallowtail Roam. The island drifts about the sea so that those with evil intentions might never find it...

So, it would seem that Leviathan was a "gift" from one of the twelve daities. Taking a guess at the time of Leviathan's "birth", the beginning of the Sixth Umbral era was the era of Water. in Wikia, it is described as follows: "Severe flooding caused the submersion and damage of many parts of Eorzea." Which makes Sisipu's story sound awfully convenient, considering it happened almost 16 centuries ago.

So i started wondering, "are other primals the same? If so, why were they given to us?" Then i noticed that 5th era was of Ice, which might refer to Shiva being "born". But it would collide with Sisipu's story of the earth being all "fire and rocks", which would be 3rd and 4th umbral eras, thus creating Ifrit and Titan, respectively. 2nd era is of lightning/Ramuh, and the lastly the first umbral era is of wind/Garuda.

Naturally, i can't pinpoint Odin, Bahamut and King Moggle anywhere, as they don't seem to have an elemental alignment. Which kinda makes me think, that they'd be somehow superior or rogue, or the elder primals. Not to mention the possible primal status of the already speculated Siren.


//edit:
While taking a quick reflection of era's i started thinking that maybe each era marked a born of a new primal, which resulted in a chaos or another, thus starting a new era. Was each following birth of a primal only trying to set a balance for the previous ones?

[NoloeTazier]

Welp, read the whole thread. T'was fun.

What started bugging me, is the origin of the Primals. I mean, sure, some of them bursted out the aetherstream when Midgarsormr took down Agrius and broke the seal under the lake. But then i remember seeing a cutscene (Legends Adrift) with Sisipu, who said:



So, it would seem that Leviathan was a "gift" from one of the twelve daities. Taking a guess at the time of Leviathan's "birth", the beginning of the Sixth Umbral era was the era of Water. in Wikia, it is described as follows: "Severe flooding caused the submersion and damage of many parts of Eorzea." Which makes Sisipu's story sound awfully convenient, considering it happened almost 16 centuries ago.

So i started wondering, "are other primals the same? If so, why were they given to us?" Then i noticed that 5th era was of Ice, which might refer to Shiva being "born". But it would collide with Sisipu's story of the earth being all "fire and rocks", which would be 3rd and 4th umbral eras, thus creating Ifrit and Titan, respectively. 2nd era is of lightning/Ramuh, and the lastly the first umbral era is of wind/Garuda.

Naturally, i can't pinpoint Odin, Bahamut and King Moggle anywhere, as they don't seem to have an elemental alignment. Which kinda makes me think, that they'd be somehow superior or rogue, or the elder primals. Not to mention the possible primal status of the already speculated Siren.


//edit:
While taking a quick reflection of era's i started thinking that maybe each era marked a born of a new primal, which resulted in a chaos or another, thus starting a new era. Was each following birth of a primal only trying to set a balance for the previous ones?

The Twelve may indeed be who made the Primals. As for Primals being born to each Umbral era, I think it'd be really iffy. The Umbral eras are more likely caused by "man" (collectively here) than the Primals. The First Umbral was indeed Wind but the history that we have, what caused the Umbral era was the Twelve leaving because the wandering tribes began to war with each other, ruining the peace. We don't know who these wandering tribes are yet, the only 2 possible choices for 'native' Eorzeans are Hellsguard Roegydan and Elezen. Other races came way later on in time.

As I stated in my timeline, I believe the Fifth and Sixth Umbral eras coincided with each other. Ice melts and causes the Flooding. As for the Third Umbral and Fourth Umbral, we don't know when Bahamut was sealed exactly. The imprisonment of Bahamut could have gave rise to the Allagan Empire or it could have brought on the destruction or atleast the downfall of them when the Fourth Umbral hit. So atleast Bahamut can be associated with 1 or 2 of the Umbral Eras, but there's no hint of any other Primals causing the other Umbral Eras. They're strong, but I don't think they're strong enough to usher in total destruction in Eorzea or let alone the rest of the planet. We also know that Primals aren't just in Eorzea, but have halted the Garlean's advancement in other parts of the world. So it's not like they're entirely special.

Also it's hinted that Urianger or the Archons were responsible for the Sixth Umbral Era. So I'm still more inclined to think it's 'mans' fault. Pissing off the Twelve which makes them leave Eorzea and ushers in the First Umbral, then the hints of Urianger causing the Sixth Umbral (even though I think the Ice melts from the Fifth Umbral caused the waters to rise, but they still could have played some part).

[Xux]

In the scene that Kan-E-Senna's introduced, were those spirits killed by Garlean soldiers or Wildlings?