A Little Pain with my Pleasure

[ZakarnRosewood]

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

[EinSoFZ]

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

It's not even a hardcore thing though. That's a really awful misconception that any challenge, penalty or difficulty = hardcore. I could just as easily suggest they add "casual" servers where you can get to max level in 30 minutes and can get the best gear from an NPC. But that really wouldn't differ too much from the current status quo would it?(hyperbole of course)

No wonder SE is conflicted. They're getting told that players want 2 different games.

[Kallera]

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

Don't lump us all into one boat. Many of those features aren't even being discussed.

[Altena]

(Sorry if its been said already, 12 pages of bickering is a lot to go through)

What would the possibility of having a set of servers listed as "Hardcore" it would need to have

- No exp rewards for quests
- Exp loss on death, even de-level
- Animation lock

That should make the "hardcore" crowd happy? Right? If not please add in whatever other features for a "hardcore" version you would need to be satisfied.

Having a huge ego and a big penis.

I am not hardcore, but damn right you should be penalized for not doing something successfully. It is a game, if there is no consequence for failure then there is no feeling of accomplishment for success.

When there are harder raids deleveling once will stop the raid because everyone should be equipped with lv 50 gear. Deleveling once you will not be able to equip your best gear and the raid my not meet the DPS check for the boss.

Then leave the dungeon and start again - kill those trash mobs with no gear and re-level.

We aren't talking about piles and piles of EXP loss here. Enough to feel it if you die over and over, but a few deaths in a dungeon and you're gravy.. No one should be able to sit in the same empty dungeon for 4hrs, repeatedly dying to the final boss until they win.

[Pseudopsia]

Then leave the dungeon and start again - kill those trash mobs with no gear and re-level.

This will frustrate a lot of players, plus you don't know the balancing of exp you get from the trash. Say if you lose 10% exp at lv 50 when dying. Will killing the amount of trash to the boss give you enough exp? It may be enough for only one attempt then you have to reset raid again? Plus the boss may be the 4th boss in the raid so you have to kill all the other bosses again.

[Altena]

This will frustrate a lot of players, plus you don't know the balancing of exp you get from the trash. Say if you lose 10% exp at lv 50 when dying. Will killing the amount of trash to the boss give you enough exp? It may be enough for only one attempt then you have to reset raid again? Plus the boss may be the 4th boss in the raid so you have to kill all the other bosses again.

Let me point out something major that you seem to be missing.

1.x had a 1hr time limit to dungeons. Even more harsh restrictions if you wanted DL body / relic quest. Therefore best case sceneario you could get up to the final boss in 12 or so minutes. It takes a few minutes to kill the boss successfully, but more like 10-15 if you include death and running back, waiting for weakness, rebuffing etc. So this would be maybe 3-5 attempts at the boss before you would be pushing it for time - causing you to zone out / start again. This is a light "penalty" for not succeeding, but it worked. If you couldn't defeat the final boss in time, you would have to repeat the zone.


2.0 will not have any time restriction. Therefore there is no innate penalty for death. This promotes very little challenge, as you can effectively throw dead bodies at the final boss until it dies. How is this challenging or rewarding?

*edit*

A simple failsafe to remove you from the instance after xx amount of full party wipes or something similar would suffice. Having no penalty at all is just stupid though.

[Pseudopsia]

2.0 will not have any time restriction. Therefore there is no innate penalty for death. This promotes very little challenge, as you can effectively throw dead bodies at the final boss until it dies. How is this challenging or rewarding?

You are confusing easy repetition for being challenging? Killing trash over and over to get exp is not challeging it's just monotonous, put in place to increase the life time of the limited content. FFXIV 1.0 wasn't done well, it was done in such a way to extend the life time of the very limited content because SE was really busy making content for 2.0. Drop rates were extremely rare as well to increase the life time of the content.

Coming up with a strategy to beat a boss is challenging and rewarding, not killing trash over an over.

[Altena]

You are confusing easy repetition for being challenging? Killing trash over and over to get exp is not challeging it's just monotonous put in place to increase the life time of the limited content. FFXIV 1.0 wasn't done well, it was done in such a way to extend the life time of the very limited content because SE was really busy making content for 2.0. Drop rates were extremely rare as well to increase the life time of the content.

Coming up with a strategy to beat a boss is challenging and rewarding, not killing trash over an over.

Nope. But you would be surprised how many people find trash mobs in a dungeon difficult. You know how many groups wiped to the trash in AV? Bucketloads. In fact half the PUGs in the early days would die as soon as they hit the lillies. What is challenging for some may not be for others, and vice verser. An instanced dungeon isn't all about 2 fights, otherwise you might as well call them primal fights and remove the rest of it. An instanced dungeon is about the whole package, and I feel spamming Chimera over and over until you win while skipping these "trash" mobs is hardly something to proclaim a success in my opinion.

I did semi switch off once you started to pull the ego card out with "your linkshell did this and that" because I take that as a grain of salt but your idea of throwing dead bodies at a mob until you win is not a success. Completing a full run with minimal deaths is. If it were my game I would throw the group out after a wipe. Death is meant to come with a penalty, not a reward. Running through an uncontested dungeon, over and over to skip to your chance at the final boss is a reward in my books.

[Pseudopsia]

your idea of throwing dead bodies at a mob until you win is not a success. Completing a full run with minimal deaths is. If it were my game I would throw the group out after a wipe. Death is meant to come with a penalty, not a reward. Running through an uncontested dungeon, over and over to skip to your chance at the final boss is a reward in my books.

You cannot just throw bodies at a raid boss to win. You have to come up with a winning strategy or you will never beat it. There's already more then just gil repairs as a penalty, people have RL stuff to do so a raid team really only have like a 3-5 hour window to actually complete the raid or complete it another day. All that deleveling is going to do is increase the delay between attempts a people blaming others for not getting enough exp. Gil repairs works fine and you can give someone gil that run out. This ancient system of deleveling isn't going to work and I'm 100% sure it will never come back no matter how many people want it on these forums.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from, I expect SE to implement 24 man raid similar to WoW. WoW there is no time limit, I know there was a 2 hour window you got to beat a boss or the trash will respawn. I expect the timer is remove because they are going to be much longer an hour long.

And you think content in 2.0 cannot be extended because..why? Its the same genre of game, with the same business goals as a successful product. It needs players to be playing it long term. The game will suffer without that longevity in place.

I expect there to be a hell of a lot more content in 2.0 considering the dev team is 9 times the size of the original 1.0 dev team.

[Kallera]

You are confusing easy repetition for being challenging? Killing trash over and over to get exp is not challeging it's just monotonous, put in place to increase the life time of the limited content. FFXIV 1.0 wasn't done well, it was done in such a way to extend the life time of the very limited content because SE was really busy making content for 2.0. Drop rates were extremely rare as well to increase the life time of the content.

Coming up with a strategy to beat a boss is challenging and rewarding, not killing trash over an over.

We get it, you want to shorten the longevity of content from weeks to days and saying only specific mobs can be considered fun and worthy of your corpse(which you leave with regularity, otherwise why even have this discussion), but not others. Die 10-20 time to teraflare and still keep going, but flop to rancid belch or grave reel? Such an Eorzea is not worth saving from such beasts!

And you think content in 2.0 cannot be extended because..why? Its the same genre of game, with the same business goals as a successful product. It needs players to be playing it long term. The game will suffer without that longevity in place.