Thoughts from a casual

[Thebard]

FFXI is dead. Long live TESonline...errr...FFXIV ARR!

[ChiefCurrahee]

it's also a major reason why XI was never considered a commercial success and predominantly kept only a small niche of dedicated players happy over the years.

You do know that FFXI is THE MOST profitable game for SE in the FF franchise? You DO KNOW that FFXI took over the #1 spot as most subbed MMO when it over took Everquest, then became the #2 MMO played after WoW some time after 2004.

FFXI wasn't a niche game for it's time. It might be a niche game today and in todays context.

also realise that a game doesn't need a million subs to be a commercial success, it doesn't need 12 million, or 500k for that matter. Numbers only serve to pat sheep on the head that they made the "right" choice and play a game that so many other people play.

[Ksenia]

and yet, look how successful MMOs have been that don't come stocked with a rich selection of challenging content for the hardcore players.

either A. they fail outright within a couple months of release and go f2p, or B. they sell a lot of boxes then suffer a slow death over the next 6-12 months, fading into MMO obscurity (and also usually going f2p)

casual-friendly content sells you the most boxes, and gets you a larger number of subs short-term. deeper, more difficult and involved content (generally designed for midcores and hardcores), however, is what keeps people paying and playing. (prime example- EvE)

"hardcores will just gobble up the content and crap it out in a couple hours" is hardly a valid justification for not bothering to design difficult content for a game. i mean, seriously? because some students will always finish their SATs in like 20 minutes with a nearly perfect score and say it was pretty easy, they should just make the SATs easier and more accessible for everyone else? that's idiotic.

a successful, healthy game that aims to be more than just another niche title primarily consisting of one particular gaming demographic needs plenty of content to keep each category of gamer happy. this is the WoW model, and 11 million subs (in an era where people keep CLAIMING f2p is the 'future' of gaming) is more than enough evidence that it works.

No MMO in the history of MMO's came on the market polished.

Every MMO I've tried in the last 4 years, I load the game, look at all the pretty stuffs, go to the foum as a level 20 and the first 6 pages are about how end game sucks because its all a horrible grind. It isn't but that's what the power gamers turned it in to in order to get to end game in the same time it took me to get to level 20. A ginormous grind to be followed by more grind. Sorry but these MMO's don't fail because Devs didn't think through their content. They fail because the scene gamers who invade them don't think through the content. They can't slow down to enjoy it. Smash through it because who needs good armor at 20 when you will be 20 for 3 or 4 days? All they care about is end game.

[Mjollnir]

No MMO in the history of MMO's came on the market polished.

Having played LotRO from Closed Beta through release, I'd have to stick up for it here. The Chronicles of Spellborn was another that I played which released without any major imbalances in the mechanics or game/server bugs.

I also played beta/release of Warhammer, Age of Conan and (natch) FFXIV which certainly weren't ready for release.

So in my experience it's certainly an unjust statement to say that no MMO in the history of MMOs came on the market polished, but I do understand where you're coming from.

I did enjoy playing games, both solo and MMO that took months to level to cap. It made me want to take a break from levelling up (whether by grind or questing) to get level-specific gear and spells as soon as I could, as it wasn't feasible to wait until cap before backtracking and picking them up. I don't think FFXIV is going to be one of those games, but I've been enjoying it for different reasons than the levelling system, so that hasn't bothered me so far.

[Lady]

No MMO in the history of MMO's came on the market polished.

Every MMO I've tried in the last 4 years, I load the game, look at all the pretty stuffs, go to the foum as a level 20 and the first 6 pages are about how end game sucks because its all a horrible grind. It isn't but that's what the power gamers turned it in to in order to get to end game in the same time it took me to get to level 20. A ginormous grind to be followed by more grind. Sorry but these MMO's don't fail because Devs didn't think through their content. They fail because the scene gamers who invade them don't think through the content. They can't slow down to enjoy it. Smash through it because who needs good armor at 20 when you will be 20 for 3 or 4 days? All they care about is end game.

For some people out there who have very few accomplishments in real life, gaming is all they have. So they rush to the top, proclaim themselves winners, and offer their criticism to show their superiority.
Don't let them upset you, if anything feel sorry for them.

[fusional]

You do know that FFXI is THE MOST profitable game for SE in the FF franchise? You DO KNOW that FFXI took over the #1 spot as most subbed MMO when it over took Everquest, then became the #2 MMO played after WoW some time after 2004.

FFXI wasn't a niche game for it's time. It might be a niche game today and in todays context.

also realise that a game doesn't need a million subs to be a commercial success, it doesn't need 12 million, or 500k for that matter. Numbers only serve to pat sheep on the head that they made the "right" choice and play a game that so many other people play.

fanboy detected! this happens every time you ever say anything objective about FFXI, especially whenever you use a certain 3 letters starting with W.

you do know that ffxi was the most profitable FF title because a small niche community of gamers kept playing it and paying for it for 10 years? you do know that this does nothing to take away from any of my points, as FFXI doesn't cater to all niches or demographics the way WoW does, and a single year WoW smashed all profit margins FFXI amassed over an entire decade? you do know that if FFXI had appealed to all walks of gamers from the start it very certainly would have kept more subscribers over the years, and perhaps that cavernous gap between XI and WoW wouldn't have been quite as enormous?

and saying FFXI wasn't a niche game for its time is idiotic. very rarely does any MMO developer go into production of a new MMO project with specific intent of producing a niche title. niche titles generally aren't INTENDED. companies want their game to be played by every demographic of gamers because that = more profit. but they fuck things up along the way and fall short of that mark, so only a niche of gamers sticks around to play the content which primarily appeals to them and hardly anyone else. logic is hard, yeah? hnnggghh thinking ughh my brain fuuuu

also realize that a game can be a commercial success without being CONSIDERED a commercial success... like FFXIII! weird, right? people talk all the time about how bad it was, how much they hated it, how it wasn't successful because they saw it for $20 two months later at gamestop. and yet it sold nearly 5 million units. so that's weird how i specifically use a word like "considered" rather than flat out saying it wasn't, right? weird how some people choose their words carefully and use them with specific denotative intent and you fanboys will still find excuses to fly off on tangents, conjuring straw men and generally just petulantly flailing around because somebody had the audacity to say something that wasn't glowingly positive about your beloved FFXI-

...which is especially amusing considered i'm sure i played XI more and accomplish more than the vast majority of you flailing fanboys. i just happen to have the ability to be constructive and objective about the games i play.

"oh, but he said something bad about XI and then he referenced WoW, he must be a hater! and fuck wow! and fuck that guy!"

speaking of sheep, you might want to pay closer attention to which crowd you're blindly following.

[fusional]

I wouldn't say a game that has survived 10 years with enough players to sustain a P2P enviroment is a failure.

But as far as the "artificial roadblocks", to me they weren't that. I lvled to 18 to get my SJ, I lvl'd to 30 to get my adv job, I lvl'd to 40 to wear full RSE, I lvl'd to 60 to wear full AF. To me these were goals, not blocks.

where did i say it was a failure? see, this drives me absolutely NUTS about the people in these forums. no matter what you say, no matter how specific- they convince themselves you said something entirely different.

and you're leaning heavily on a fallacy of personal experience. just because they weren't roadblocks to you, that doesn't mean they weren't roadblocks to the majority of players who tried the game and quit sometime between level 15 and 60. (and if i were a betting man, i'd say most of them quit between 18 and 30)

Sorry but these MMO's don't fail because Devs didn't think through their content

nope and wrong. i could type up an entire essay on the topic of how marketing and demographics work, and what that has to do with gaming, but you'd just ignore it and repeat yourself. so carry on telling yourself whatever it is you're convinced is true.

[Kallera]

nope and wrong. i could type up an entire essay on the topic of how marketing and demographics work, and what that has to do with gaming, but you'd just ignore it and repeat yourself. so carry on telling yourself whatever it is you're convinced is true.

So you admit that your reasoning is so poor that you can't actually convince people? Are you posting in this thread just to hear yourself talk? WoW did not cater to all "all niches and demographics". Or there wouldn't be so many people that do not care for the game in the first place.

[Lady]

where did i say it was a failure? see, this drives me absolutely NUTS about the people in these forums. no matter what you say, no matter how specific- they convince themselves you said something entirely different.

and you're leaning heavily on a fallacy of personal experience. just because they weren't roadblocks to you, that doesn't mean they weren't roadblocks to the majority of players who tried the game and quit sometime between level 15 and 60. (and if i were a betting man, i'd say most of them quit between 18 and 30)



nope and wrong. i could type up an entire essay on the topic of how marketing and demographics work, and what that has to do with gaming, but you'd just ignore it and repeat yourself. so carry on telling yourself whatever it is you're convinced is true.

You seem angry for some unknown reason... Forums are full of personal opinion. I respect yours, no reason to disrespect mine.

[fusional]

So you admit that your reasoning is so poor that you can't actually convince people? Are you posting in this thread just to hear yourself talk? WoW did not cater to all "all niches and demographics". Or there wouldn't be so many people that do not care for the game in the first place.

yeah, an industry-leading game has 11 million subscribers (8-9 million more than its closest competitor) and it's alllllll the same demo. you sure are a sharp one. so it's interesting you'd bring up shitty reasoning...

so you admit that you don't know anything about marketing or game design?

You seem angry for some unknown reason... Forums are full of personal opinion. I respect yours, no reason to disrespect mine.

if you actually respected someone's "personal opinion" you wouldn't try to misconstrue their "personal opinion" as something that it's not.