Counter to Elitism

[ispano]

Here's an example of something you can do that's futile. Find someone who wants a game to reward with minimal effort. Usually this type gets upset and says it's a game and not a job when told they need to work for the reward. So ask them something like this. You want it to be simple and easy entertainment, yet you want a reward as if it was a job where you put effort and work at it? So you effectively want to be rewarded for a job, except you only want to watch TV?

It's not perfect, but it's something i've seen from many people.

[Reynhart]

I'm not one of "those people", so I can freely express my opinion against that mentality.
Since you call them "those people" too, I assume you're not part of that group.

So, what is the best from your point of view ? If we reject some ideas because "other people might get upset", we can miss some good ones.

[SkyeWindbinder]

Honestly, I don't understand how this system still works. What motivation can people find to do the same thing a 200th time, when they were screwed 199 times by a simple dice roll ?

Your exaggeration is noted. But the thing of it is, time and repitition are part of what makes an MMO. You may get lucky on the first roll. Then again you may not. On the other hand, you'll probably have to run the dungeon again in order to get yet another piece or loot you're looking for. To tell you the truth, if the content is fun and you have a few friends willing to run it either for their pieces of loot or to help you get your own, it's really not as bad as you're painting it out to be. If it was, it would have failed a long time ago instead of being featured in MMOs multiple times.

How do people thought, back in the days of FFXI, that getting the Empress Hairpin was "challenging" when you could OS the NM that could drop it ?

I've never played FFXI, so I have no idea what you're talking about. But I do know this: Making content challenging is only part of what makes an MMO worthwhile. Dungeons exist also as an alternative for gaining rewards that boost your character. A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

And more importantly, why do they consider people who claim "challenge over random" to be "gimme gimme players" ?

I don't know, but I do know that random is needed in these kinds of runs just as much as challenge.

My ideas certainly have flaws, but at least you could feel proud when the game rewards you.

Well, I'm frankly speaking for myself, but when my wand dropped for my WHM in one of my primal fights, I felt pretty proud myself.

[ispano]

I'm not one of "those people", so I can freely express my opinion against that mentality.
Since you call them "those people" too, I assume you're not part of that group.

So, what is the best from your point of view ? If we reject some ideas because "other people might get upset", we can miss some good ones.

It's more that, if they don't cater to those people to some degree, they won't play. And those are the types they're trying to attract. So ideas and such are fine, but if it pushes the target customer base away it likely won't happen.

And that's really the thing, you can't just show up with your point of view alone. I've learned long ago that my PoV means nothing if the game isn't catered towards what I like, and that unless people just all of a sudden change to be similar, to just avoid games that don't fit me. If I like more of the game than I dislike, I play, otherwise not. Until money isn't the driving force behind making the game, they'll likely cater to the largest amount they can. In this day and age I unfortunately do not fit into that group. And there's very few developers that make games that I do like.

[Chainermaelstrom]

Well if your looking to avoid the elitism mentality then I suggest reading my thread on NA group seeking players who want to do events in a endgame LS fashion but with a casual play style. Once 2.0 is released and they give us the option to jump servers me and a few of my close friends will be making a LS that will be helpful to casual players. Our main focus will be to help others while getting stuff done for our own accounts. We plan on finishing our relics while helping the group. Our play times will be PST.

[Nosiahk]

"More incentives to Casual players." Stop trolling.
Counter elites, counter trolls, counter noobs, counter racism, counter non english speakers, counter hardcore players, and counter strike. Oh gawd... can you just deal with it? Why even make a thread? Oh wait because you are entitled freely to express your wonderful opinion. Another dumb thread.

And for some casual players, don't you guys just want "hard, earned, top tier-ed gears" the easy way? If I offended you, then shiet, let it be. Play the game, you don't like it, stop crying and move on. The world doesn't revolve around you.

Elitism is everywhere, not just players who has end game gears. Even noobs who has a level 10 wooden stick can be an elite bossing around a player who has a level 1 stick. Go ahead and express your opinion and suggestion, its not going to fly by like every other mmo.

[Reynhart]

Your exaggeration is noted. But the thing of it is, time and repitition are part of what makes an MMO. You may get lucky on the first roll. Then again you may not.

Some people on my LS have done Ifrit more than 500 times to get all the seven weapons. It's not exaggerated to say they were screwed more than 200 times.

On the other hand, you'll probably have to run the dungeon again in order to get yet another piece or loot you're looking for. To tell you the truth, if the content is fun and you have a few friends willing to run it either for their pieces of loot or to help you get your own, it's really not as bad as you're painting it out to be. If it was, it would have failed a long time ago instead of being featured in MMOs multiple times.

Doing the dungeon for another loot or to help a friend is totally different. If you have 5 or 10 items items in a dungeon, of course you would have te repeat it. Like I said in one post, if only one item is guaranteed on each run, even for a full PT, it'd be fairer.

Making content challenging is only part of what makes an MMO worthwhile. Dungeons exist also as an alternative for gaining rewards that boost your character. A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

Dungeons are "challenging content". You shouldn't offer good reward in an "unchallenging content", and winning a dice roll is not challenging.

A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

No, the content and reward should be enticing enough so that a player is willing to do it.

I don't know, but I do know that random is needed in these kinds of runs just as much as challenge.

A little random is good. How a content rewards you can be random, not If a content should reward you. (Dark Matter is not a reward for killing a primal )

Well, I'm frankly speaking for myself, but when my wand dropped for my WHM in one of my primal fights, I felt pretty proud myself.

Since you probably killed that primal numerous times (For that you should be proud) before dropping it, there's nothing special from this win that could make you more proud of yourself.

[KaiTBF]

Ok, I give up.

Liar.

Also, I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that low drop rates make content challenging (though repeating content hundreds of times making one a better player is another thing entirely seeing as humans learn best through repetition. E.G. a skilled welder is skilled because he's practiced welding for 10 years. This is of course taking geniuses out of the picture because they wouldn't really be geniuses if they were so common that we could consider it the norm. Also skill in an mmo is really subjective to begin with, and ""being a good player" is so subjective that we could spend hours arguing about it, so let's not bring that up again.) Anyways, back to what I was saying. What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging, but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing. As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is. I will agree however that drop rates don't need to be as horrendous as they are.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

[Reynhart]

Liar.

You're right, I should really stop posting for nothing

What most of us are trying to tell you isn't that we think random number generated drop rates makes content challenging

Wrong. Maybe not everyone in this thread, but I posted on other threads, and a lot of people told me that content is "hard because it dropped few"

but that they're necessary to give the dev team time to develop other content, and to keep people playing.

I don't think so. If they design more content like "The Raven Nevermore", they'd have plenty of time to come up with new ideas before everyone on each server managed to beat it.

As of right now a rng is the best way to suck up your time (which we already covered as being priority #1) and no one, including yourself, has proposed an alternate system that could work for the standard MMO and make the black hole that eats all of our time and money any more enjoyable than it is.

More difficult fights, steadily but surely building your way up for the items. These are, IMO, two ways that are far better than RNG supremacy.

Also... no one I know ever considered killing the Valkrum Emperor a challenge, the only challenging part was getting claim. Most people just considered camping the stupid lizard and fly a huge pain in the ass.

I didn't say "killing the Valkurm Emperor" is a challenge" but "obtaining the Empress Hairpin".

The worst part of this is, as long as we support RNG mechanics and repeating content, developpers will still design their games that way. After all, if it still works, why would they push themselves too hard to bring something else ?

[SkyeWindbinder]

Some people on my LS have done Ifrit more than 500 times to get all the seven weapons. It's not exaggerated to say they were screwed more than 200 times.

It's also quite plausible to say that they simply weren't lucky enough to get what they wanted those "200" times they played. (200 seems like an exaggeration to me as well, but I'll allow it, since I wasn't really there when your LS members were playing.) Anyway, it's the luck of the draw. Some people have it, some have less than others.

Doing the dungeon for another loot or to help a friend is totally different. If you have 5 or 10 items items in a dungeon, of course you would have to repeat it. Like I said in one post, if only one item is guaranteed on each run, even for a full PT, it'd be fairer.

What is fair is a matter or perspective. Some people may not feel it's fair that they are not guaranteed high tier gear EVERY time they run a dungeon once. Some people may feel it's not fair that they actually have to group up with others to get access to said gear. Some people may think it's not fair they don't get a cookie every time they step into a dungeon. lol But the way the system is set up now, it all but guarantees 100% that people will continue to revisit dungeons if they want quality tier rare items. Setting it up that way helps keep players busy while playing the game at highest level. Granted, it may not be the most graceful or "fair" way to elongate a player's business with content in a game, but it works.

Dungeons are "challenging content". You shouldn't offer good reward in an "unchallenging content", and winning a dice roll is not challenging.

However, the dungeon itself is challenging enough to balance with the reward you are trying to receive. Unfortunately, the content is not the only obstacle that stands between you and your desired gear. (shrug) What are ya gonna do? Well, besides run it again. lol It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but you have to understand something. Just making content challenging is not what keeps an mmo running. Indeed, it's not really the most important aspect of keeping an mmo running. What keeps an mmo running is time, more specifically time the players invest into the game. Adding the luck factor to drops all but totally ensures the player will be back to spend more time in that dungeon. It's a system that works. And quite well, I may add.

No, the content and reward should be enticing enough so that a player is willing to do it.


A little random is good. How a content rewards you can be random, not If a content should reward you. (Dark Matter is not a reward for killing a primal )

You say that, after I said:

A Dev's job is to make the content and the reward enticing enough so that a player is willing to repeat said content for said reward.

What say we meet somewhere in the middle on this? (I am not beyond compromise :P) The content should be enticing enough so that the player is willing to do it repeatedly. The reward is part of the enticement. Do you want it? Do ya? Oh, you want better rewards for just running the dungeon than totems? Fine. Well how about a small piece of green gear? Suppose you were getting that instead of totems? Of course, that wouldn't satisfy a lot of people who may feel they deserve at least one piece of blue gear or primal weapon for running. So the complaining would continue, lol. You can please all the people some of the time... yadda yadda. The thing of it is, you are not really going to be satisfied until you get that one epic item you're looking for. You're still going to repeat the content. So, what would be the point? You're asking for a trophy at least for participating. But the truth of it is, not everyone can get a reward just for being there. The luck factor, man. It can be a witch. But it keeps players returning for more, and makes getting the item all the more satisfying.

Since you probably killed that primal numerous times (For that you should be proud) before dropping it, there's nothing special from this win that could make you more proud of yourself.

Okay, we'll meet in the middle again. I was proud because, through repeating the process, I got good at the fight enough so that I could do it blindfolded. I was proud that I totally kicked the butt of the primal that stood before me minutes ago, and was good enough at the fight so I was an indispensable healer AND DD to my team. And I was proud I stuck it out all those times I did it until I got my stuff instead of giving up out of frustration and getting nothing for my troubles. The primal weapon I got was not just a testament of my skill, it was a testament of my patience as well.