Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[syntaxlies]

Anyone ever play Ragnarok Online? Two jobs from one isn't exactly a new or unheard of thing. :P

It's not that people care about 2 jobs from one. Is the fact that you only gain 1 job skill every 10 lvls making the job feel more like the class it came from which in essence would make the 2 jobs from said class feel the same.

[Azurus]

It's not that people care about 2 jobs from one. Is the fact that you only gain 1 job skill every 10 lvls making the job feel more like the class it came from which in essence would make the 2 jobs from said class feel the same.

no matter how I look at it abolishing the classes in favor of the jobs would be the easiest way to have diverse and dynamic jobs. If not each job would have to have 1 class to keep jobs from being too similar, OR each class has different skills depending on weapon equipped, like to use the gld > pld & DRK example, if the gladiator has a greatsword equipped, he has a completely different, DD focused, skillset that translates in tot he DRK class. If there is anything to take from GW2 it might be this concept of a different skill pallet based on weapon. This way hell ud have the freedom to make as many jobs as you want branch of classes as long as each one uses a different weapon.

[syntaxlies]

no matter how I look at it abolishing the classes in favor of the jobs would be the easiest way to have diverse and dynamic jobs. If not each job would have to have 1 class to keep jobs from being too similar, OR each class has different skills depending on weapon equipped, like to use the gld > pld & DRK example, if the gladiator has a greatsword equipped, he has a completely different, DD focused, skillset that translates in tot he DRK class. If there is anything to take from GW2 it might be this concept of a different skill pallet based on weapon. This way hell ud have the freedom to make as many jobs as you want branch of classes as long as each one uses a different weapon.

I had made this suggestion before for throwing weopons. Instead of just throwing them, switch to them and have skills based on them.

[Shougun]

@Azurus: I think the idea of classes are neat (solo and very flexible with high reward on learning other classes (use their skills)) but I think there should be less classes then jobs and that the jobs level themselves as unique entities, whether they take skills from the classes that were required to obtain the advanced job or not is if makes sense to include (not because the system dictates it so).

Because if you abolish classes entirely you lose some flexibility but if you maintain on the 1.0 course you lose individuality. (I believe your system would work too but you will lose class flexibility (but at least get job individuality))

Any bombing of the system will take a lot of time to rebalance though.. like maybe a month delay (or more if things to to hell).

[Azurus]

I think the idea of classes are neat (solo and very flexible with high reward on learning other classes (use their skills)) but I think there should be less classes then jobs and that the jobs level themselves as unique entities, whether they take skills from the classes that were required to obtain the advanced job or not is if makes sense to include (not because the system dictates it so).

Because if you abolish classes entirely you lose some flexibility but if you maintain on the 1.0 course you lose individuality.


Any bombing of the system will take a lot of time to rebalance though.. like maybe a month delay (or more if things to to hell).

look at my suggestion about tiring skills more to the weapon than the class itself, this would allow very flexible combos in the armoury system AND make us not have to level 1000 jobs haha

[Shougun]

look at my suggestion about tiring skills more to the weapon than the class itself, this would allow very flexible combos in the armoury system AND make us not have to level 1000 jobs haha

I think that is a good idea. It would make more sense as well - armory system has to do with the gear. Feels a bit like FFIX, perhaps even could entertwine materia into the system deeper.

Having a set of abilities come from a weapon would also mean that different types of weapons would be easier to make compareable (higher dps on one but perhaps better spells on another)

[Zoloe]

I think that is a good idea. It would make more sense as well - armory system has to do with the gear. Feels a bit like FFIX, perhaps even could entertwine materia into the system deeper.

Having a set of abilities come from a weapon would also mean that different types of weapons would be easier to make compareable (higher dps on one but perhaps better spells on another)

Agreed. I like this idea a lot.

[GodseijuroHiko]

Some people( you know who you are) are getting way too hung up on the weapon problem. Godseijuro Hiko especially talking down to people he thinks dont understand, use your imagination a bit. Anyone remember how gla used to use dagger? or how cnj and whm can use both wand and staff?

IF drk gets added to gla it doesnt have to be as restrictive as you think. They can make GS or scyth that gla/drk can use but pld cannot. Also the 5 quested abilities can be very drk themed. We can also give them the freedom to experiment with the job a bit more instead of just demanding a copy of FFXI drk.

They could also add a thf class that can use gun/dagger/katana which would later branch into ninja and musketeer(lore friendly: considering the musketeers were pirates first)

The people you think I was talking down to did not. When you say something and people either ignore it, just to tell you about their great love for the class system and how perfect it is, while not speaking on what the necro guy brought up, they don't get it. I also stated that they were ignoring it on purpose.

As the last few people in the thread have said, 1.0's system was flawed. That's all that was being talked about. Many people have posted how they like the system, but it would need to be reworked. How do you converse with people who just keep harping, "The class system is great,GTFO!"

5 Dark themed abilities won't do much to alter the massive amount of tank themed abilities and traits from the Gladiator. Won't make it any less of a tank.

Fast Blade
Rampart
Phalanx
Aegis Boon
Enhanced Physical Defense
Savage Blade
Enhanced Rampart
Flash
Shield Bash
Swift Aegis Boon
Sentinel
Enhanced Physical Defense II
Flat Blade
Enhanced Flash
Riot Blade
Enhanced Physical Crit Resilience
Outmaneuver
Enhanced Sentinel
War Drum 38
Enhanced Physical Defense III
Tempered Will
Enhanced Outmaneuver
Rage of Halone
Enhanced Flash II
Goring Blade

The problem became more apparent soon as they decided that sentinel was no longer a class to level up, and only when you had a shield. Then again, in Tactics, dark knights were able to use them.
Minus the weapon skills, Do you notice the trend with the traits? I figured it would be easier to just spell it out in a nice list, since you know, I like talking down to "everyone."
Using my imagination, I can come up with 5 ultra dark themed abilities + weapon skills but my brain is still telling me it's still a tank. So, I'll go with what was used before.

Sanguine Sword
Infernal Strike
Crushing Blow
Abyssal Blade
Unholy Sacrafice

Those taken straight from my favorite FF, Tactics.

Is anti FFXI, the only thing people can come up with? No one is asking for Final Fantasy XI. If you must know, When I think dark night, I think of FFIV and FFT. Nothing gladiator offered, hints that it's anywhere close to being a dark night.

Imagination is awesome, but without some perspective, it runs wild.

The restrictions, we're so hung up on, is deeper than you're making it out to be. You just straight up made a dark job in your head with Defensive abilities... and it's because classes are tied to weapons, it makes it hard introducing new ones without having a class tied to them or, a job that would be able to use them in the future. I don't personally care if you like me or not, but if all you have to say to our thoughts are, "you're hung up on this, we don't need it to be like final fantasy xi, you're talking down to people who you think don't understand, let's not talk about this anymore," then you should probably don't read. Just lurk, demonize us in your head, and just move along. (which is obnoxious imo, but people keep trying to shut up the convo.)

I don't really want classes to go, but I'm not going to dismiss their argument just because I don't like it. It makes sense that classes became kinda obsolete when jobs were introduced. Like I said in other posts which you conveniently forgot to mention, we're just engaging in talk, and I'm personally excited to see how Yoshi tweaks this.

[GodseijuroHiko]

Hmm, I don't think the Class system has really gotten an opportunity to shine with the Job system yet. While perhaps not completely necessary to have, it does offer some good footing for areas like PvP, where classes that can customize itself more may be more beneficial than a Job which only excels in certain areas.

I "kind of" look at it as a talent tree from other MMO's. The Class System looks weird just because it really hasn't given you options yet.

I will try some examples:

I am a new Gladiator who just started the game. My weapons available to me are a sword+shield or a two-handed sword. I am given the option to focus on being a tank or become a DPS. That lv.1-30 area gives me the opportunity to decide which feeling or style of play I enjoy more. When I reach lv.30 I decide that I enjoy DPS more, which I decide to become a Dark Knight. What I also like is if I decide down the road I don't enjoy one role, I can start Paladin and see if that sparks for me.

WoW actually approaches classes like this also, not to the extent of FFXIV, but they do put you on a blank slate before choosing your role. Like if you are a Paladin in that game, the first ten levels gives you a little access to all roles you can become. Lv.10 comes around and then your talent tree is activated and you choose which role you prefer the most. Rather it be Retribution(DPS), Holy(Healing), or Protection(Tanking). You are given the option within a class.

FFXIV does almost the same exact thing as I said above. Perhaps to more of a extreme level, but I do get the purpose of keeping the Class system intact. They have already said in the past that Classes will still have it's advantages. My guess mostly is on the PvP side like I said above. Assuming you can still use abilities of other classes. It does actually sound clunky in a balance sense, but I guess we will see how they decide to approach it.

tl;dr: The Class system can work, it just needs time to flourish itself.

You know, that branching path thing seems like a swell idea. Made me very excited to think about lol.

[Hyrist]

I'm going to side with reality here and say that the class system is here to stay.

You may not like it, but them's the breaks. You're welcome not to play, or to invest a little faith in Yoshida and his team after all of his hard work and actually give him time to work this system into something better than what we had in 1.xx.

Personally, I don't expect the class/job system to be fully evolved in ARR and I don't really care. I enjoy the current system and I'm glad they have the groundwork to add more depth to it.

The one thing people don't realize that restricting it just the job system hamstrings the potential growth of this game. Instead of Job and Class quests it's just Job quests, instead of Job based items and roles and class based items and roles it's just one. You're narrowing your scope for the sake of being a unique little snowflake.

Any and all limitations by having a dual system like class and Job can be overcome by simply expanding on it. Issues with Dark Knight attached to Gladiator can be lifted by creating a secondary weapon type for each class (Greatsword for the case of Gladiator) and given that we wanted a diversified weapon system in this game, this fufills a request while adding further depth to the system as a whole.

In the end my plea is to give this guy some time. He just spent the entirety of two years making a game that should have taken him five, given the normally yield of games out of Square Enix's internal development. It's going to be vanilla version all over again so keep that in mind with the base systems.

So it's going to be a while before we see the fruits of this labor develop. For now, just think of the classes as sub-forms of the jobs and leave it be at that.