Focus Classes amongst their respective Jobs

[Rhomagus]

Sure Classes may/get useful abilities for PVP (using the current system and speculating) like Sentinel and Rampart, Stoneskin and Cure which sounds good for the 1on1 PvP Coliseum they talked about but I'd see Conjurer as being overpowered there, Aerora has a secondary effect of Dispel so they can remove your buffs and Repose to put you asleep while they recover MP. In the other PvP mode its more team and objective oriented. You're fighting another team while trying to capture a base (I think that is what was said) so we have to assume we're in parties and I'd assume jobs would be better. Monk with Fist of Wind for movement speed to get there fast. White Mage for Regen and double Raise. Bard for Swift Song, Minuet, and Ballad. Black Mage for Sleepga (we'll see how this works), Lancer gets a little survivability in its Jumps which I'd assume make them untargetable. Warrior Steel Cyclone destroying everyone. Now for Paladin I can only speculate that Provoke and Flash cause targets to lock onto you (course Warrior can do the same and then get Steel Cyclone stun).

Just because we can make up rules for dungeons and have say Class only dungeons and instances, that doesn't mean we should. That's Class only gear that people would have to carry to even attempt those Raids. Sure it works for low man because they aren't able to open up their Job yet, but that's just a hindrance and not a reward when they could EASILY just be given Black Mage from the start and skip the Thaumaturge nonesense.

I do like speculation but it's still hard to say that jobs would be better in a PvP environment even in group settings. With the myriad of skills available to classes it'd be more difficult to predict who, on what class, has access to what skills, at any given time without having access to their action bar. That in and of itself makes it more difficult to ascertain a player controlled group's strategic intentions.

I'm also cautious of a class only dungeon. That kind of thing assumes the developers need a reason to pigeonhole a party atmosphere for classes, when I don't think that's really necessary. More solo content that either favors or requires classes I could support but creating content specifically to pigeonhole a system into something it wasn't originally intended for I think is counterproductive and would just further confuse the player base.

[Dzian]

To Dzian,
Rebuttal in red text:..

Ok you've made it tricky to respond to individual points in your layout. but....

A WAR can solo it's way through a mass ton of mobs not just one on one but several at a time. This makes for an incredibly high level of efficiency. even on guild leve mobs severel levels higher. Something a MRD simply cannot do.

A GLA has invigorate and second wind sure but what are you going to do with that tp. An extra flat blade perhaps while all your other skills are on cool down? A PLD has Spirits Within which is a very powerfull attack on a 60 second cool down which is 30 seconds less than Invigorate. No second wind perhaps but there is Holy Succor and you can Bloodbath your Spirits Within and get hp restored. By going GLA and using second wind you you say you reduce downtime between fights, but as a PLD those fights will be over much faster and often chaining more together than you could on GLA.

I personally prefer to dispatch enemies efficiently with little to no downtime in between fights on leves in order to get the maximum bonus.

You, Me and everyone else. whether that bonus be more exp from a leve reward or more farmed items in the same time frame effeciency matters which is why jobs win.

[whoopeeragon]

If we talk about the current abilities, there are going to be discrepancies, but I'm sure there will be changes. For the sake of the argument though, I'll stick to the current abilities/set-ups.

A flaw I instantly picked up in your argument, NoloeTazier, is about BLM being useful for Sleepga...considering Cure wakes up asleep people, all the opposing team has to do is keep their CNJ/WHM away from the targetted member, then Curaga. So I don't think taking a BLM into fights because they have Sleepga is a good justification. I'd say their biggest benefit would be Flare for the DoT effect, but that would involve being close up. In other words, in PvP party-based content, where BLMs have no support abilities, they are likely to be the weakest link - there's only so much a WHM can do to keep you topped up when everyone goes for the BLM. This being situational of course. Pardon this observation, but your post seems to be targetting an AI fight where you know what the opponent would do, which is vastly different from combatting an actual player party.

Also, Conjurer wouldn't be so overpowered considering there's Spell interruption. Sanguine Rite will help, but it's a 90 second cooldown, and only lasts...20 seconds? And Repose putting you to sleep will only work for the first or second casts - with the way debuffs are handled, the opponent will soon grow immune. Conjurers also cannot stun (it's the only class without access to an ability to stun, unless you count Shield Bash which means you have to be up-close in their face and lose a double-handed weapon). PGLs can also dispel a CNJ's buffs, not to mention also having their own stun abilities. I'd say their best benefit in PvP would be greater buff-potency, but considering how squishy they are, 3500 HP of a MRD + gimped Protect would most likely smash apart a CNJ's 2500 HP even with their uber Protect.

In terms of party-based combat, comparing a set-up of 7 classes VS a setup of 7 jobs, comparison is:

-more AoE attacks from class party compared to job party
-more raises from class party
-higher specialised damage output from job party (situational)
-better specialised effects from job party
-more potential for sub-healers in class party
-in link to above, higher self-survivability of class party

This is all just speculation really, since we don't even know how PvP will actually work. But against a party of actual players where you don't know what they do to a degree, I'd say versatility of classes is definitely more effective - one mess up in the strategy of jobs, and you have no leeway to try and shift things elsewhere/recover. It's still a very debatable point, so open to discussion.

Classes were meant to be versatile, not the creme-de-la-creme of their roles, and they've achieved it to an extent in the current game. It's a shame that versatility wasn't a key aspect in the content they designed, not to mention the extent of versatility was still rather low for classes (there was always the cookie cutter setup of abilities for classes). Just streamlining and additional abilities and effects will complement both systems in a satisfactory way.

[Rhomagus]

ok you've made it tricky to respond to individual points in your layout. but....

Aa warrior can solo it's way through a mass ton of mobs not just one on one but several at a time. this makes for an incredibly high level of efficiency. even on guild leve mobs severel levels higher. something a marauder simply cannot do.

a gla has invigorate and second wind sure but what are you going to do with that tp. an extra flat blade perhaps. a pld has spirits within which is very powerfull attack on a 60 second cool down not to different from that of invigorate. no second wind perhaps but there is holy succor and you can bloodbath your spirits and get an amount of hp not to different from that of second wind. by going gla and using second wind you you say you reduce downtime between fight but as a paladin those fights will be over much faster and often chaining more together than you could on gla

You Me and everyone else. whether that bonus be more exp from a leve reward or more farmed items in the same time frame. which is why jobs win.

But they don't, not in solo situations. The only reason I make the claims that I do is because I used to make the same mistakes that you do.

When the job system was introduced I failed to recognize the adaptability of the classes. I just saw the jobs as advanced classes since you could still set abilities from other classes. I'd solo GC leves at Camp Bald Knoll as whatever job around 40 I needed to level while I'd wait for a party invite or a linkshell event. In my time doing this I found that I was able to get a higher GC seal yield whenever I used the correct abilities in anticipation of the style of guildleve I accepted.

Different guildleve styles would require more of an emphasis on either offense or defense but because I was solo I couldn't afford to sacrifice either and still maintain prime efficiency. Different combinations of abilities changed depending on the class I was currently playing as and the type of guildleve I needed to complete. This is when I started exploring the differences between classes and I found that with the right abilities set, I was more effective, even with lower level gear in certain places, every time as a class rather than when I was a job.

This was proved in the form of not only higher yields per leve but also in leve completion per hour.

[Alaltus]

I see where you're going in that case. I still see my character as one person, not several different people contained inside of one person. I think that is primarily where we differ.

I understand not being able to use certain abilities that my character already knows when he's performing a role in a group. I don't understand why he's unable to call on his well rounded experiences as an adventurer when he's on his own.

I personally feel that the system has overly adapted to fit jobs into it not the other way around so that is why I take the stance that I do. I've already begrudgingly accepted the changes already made. To further upset that balance would dishearten me even further. If anything I think they should further delineate the two systems to make them more effective in their given contexts. BLM needs some attention on the party play side and GLA needs a little more attention on the solo play side of things.

I understand you like the whole freedom to choose and having been playing since the very beginning i was at one time all for Classes but it seems some where down the road between having to level x y z Classes to get everything, picking the same actions for mostly all the Classes. Many actions dropping from my consideration list due to potency loss during the switch and some actions being downright useless because the developers had built every endgame encounter to bypass them, Decoy and Dreadspikes i'm looking at you..... I'm just underwhelmed by the current choice we have it seems like a fallacy.

Atleast with a more well defined system you could cut all that fat from the game that seems so pointless right now and let players focus on enjoying the game at their own pace rather than having to worry about all the different Classes they will have to level to get the ultimate soloing/etc build which is often 1 or 2 actions from near enough each lol. If they could some how reconcile all of the Class system's current issues and build in some real choice/strategy i would be all for it. Like say i'm Lancer, natively i only have physical attacks but the opponent requires that i use elemental attacks and through the Class system and possibly gear/point allotment i can use Elemental attacks/abilities from other Classes at full potency to dispatch my foe efficiently.

Though thats only an example i could support a system that could give me bigger differences in my action list depending on the situation provided the Classes still remain limited in some way to prevent them becoming what they were in the beginning. As a player if i could choose between FFIX's or FFXII's Character systems i would much rather pick IX over XII, each character has a clear playing style instead of just ending up being Onion Knights(able to do just about everything equally and respond to everything with the same abilities).

[Rhomagus]

I understand you like the whole freedom to choose and having been playing since the very beginning i was at one time all for Classes but it seems some where down the road between having to level x y z Classes to get everything picking the same actions for mostly all the Classes. Many actions dropping from my consideration list due to potency loss during the switch and some actions being downright useless because the developers had built every endgame encounter to bypass them, Decoy and Dreadspikes i'm looking at you..... I'm just underwhelmed by the current choice we have it seems like a fallacy.

Atleast with a more well defined system you could cut all that fat from the game that seems so pointless right now and let players focus on enjoying the game at their own pace rather than having to worry about all the different Classes they will have to level to get the ultimate soloing/etc build which is often 1 or 2 actions from near enough each lol. If they could some how reconcile all of the Class systems current issues and build in some real choice/strategy i would be all for it. Like say i'm Lancer, natively i only have physical attacks but the opponent requires that i use elemental attacks and through the Class system and possibly gear/point allotment i can use Elemental attacks/abilities from other Classes at full potency to dispatch my foe efficiently.

Though thats only an example i could support a system that could give me bigger differences in my action list depending on the situation provided the Classes still remain limited in some way to prevent them becoming what they were in the beginning. As a player if i could choose between FFIX's or FFXII's Character systems i would much rather pick IX over XII, each character has a clear playing style instead of just ending up being Onion Knights(able to do just about everything equally and respond to everything with the same abilities).

When the job system was initially announced I'd always wished that your job title would've been bestowed upon you after you set abilities to your bar, but that you'd still be able to set whatever abilities you had learned. After you chose a title certain stats / effectiveness of skills would be increased or decreased to reflect that change. I would've personally enjoyed that much more than the hybrid system we have now. It basically turns the job system into a subset of the class system rather than turning the two into a parallel.

Basically how BLU mage worked in XI but with bonuses bestowed upon you via job titles which would unlock job specific abilities and increase the effectiveness of certain abilities and decrease the effectiveness of others.

That's not how they decided to go though.

[Jynx]

Classes do nothing but hamstring Jobs becoming something unique and creative. Every job is stuck being stuck to it's origin class's style and skills.

I'd rather we not have classes.

[Alaltus]

When the job system was initially announced I'd always wished that your job title would've been bestowed upon you after you set abilities to your bar, but that you'd still be able to set whatever abilities you had learned. After you chose a title certain stats / effectiveness of skills would be increased or decreased to reflect that change. I would've personally enjoyed that much more than the hybrid system we have now. It basically turns the job system into a subset of the class system rather than turning the two into a parallel.

Basically how BLU mage worked in XI but with bonuses bestowed upon you via job titles which would unlock job specific abilities and increase the effectiveness of certain abilities and decrease the effectiveness of others.

That's not how they decided to go though.

I was in the camp of having Jobs not be tied to weapons/classes so more or less the same place as you really, i seem to remember alot of players claiming the coming of an apocalypse should my Lancer don a Redmage feathered hat back then lol. But yeah i would love something like that......

[NoloeTazier]

If we talk about the current abilities, there are going to be discrepancies, but I'm sure there will be changes. For the sake of the argument though, I'll stick to the current abilities/set-ups.

A flaw I instantly picked up in your argument, NoloeTazier, is about BLM being useful for Sleepga...considering Cure wakes up asleep people, all the opposing team has to do is keep their CNJ/WHM away from the targetted member, then Curaga. So I don't think taking a BLM into fights because they have Sleepga is a good justification. I'd say their biggest benefit would be Flare for the DoT effect, but that would involve being close up. In other words, in PvP party-based content, where BLMs have no support abilities, they are likely to be the weakest link - there's only so much a WHM can do to keep you topped up when everyone goes for the BLM. This being situational of course. Pardon this observation, but your post seems to be targetting an AI fight where you know what the opponent would do, which is vastly different from combatting an actual player party.

Also, Conjurer wouldn't be so overpowered considering there's Spell interruption. Sanguine Rite will help, but it's a 90 second cooldown, and only lasts...20 seconds? And Repose putting you to sleep will only work for the first or second casts - with the way debuffs are handled, the opponent will soon grow immune. Conjurers also cannot stun (it's the only class without access to an ability to stun, unless you count Shield Bash which means you have to be up-close in their face and lose a double-handed weapon). PGLs can also dispel a CNJ's buffs, not to mention also having their own stun abilities. I'd say their best benefit in PvP would be greater buff-potency, but considering how squishy they are, 3500 HP of a MRD + gimped Protect would most likely smash apart a CNJ's 2500 HP even with their uber Protect.

In terms of party-based combat, comparing a set-up of 7 classes VS a setup of 7 jobs, comparison is:

-more AoE attacks from class party compared to job party
-more raises from class party
-higher specialised damage output from job party (situational)
-better specialised effects from job party
-more potential for sub-healers in class party
-in link to above, higher self-survivability of class party

This is all just speculation really, since we don't even know how PvP will actually work. But against a party of actual players where you don't know what they do to a degree, I'd say versatility of classes is definitely more effective - one mess up in the strategy of jobs, and you have no leeway to try and shift things elsewhere/recover. It's still a very debatable point, so open to discussion.

Classes were meant to be versatile, not the creme-de-la-creme of their roles, and they've achieved it to an extent in the current game. It's a shame that versatility wasn't a key aspect in the content they designed, not to mention the extent of versatility was still rather low for classes (there was always the cookie cutter setup of abilities for classes). Just streamlining and additional abilities and effects will complement both systems in a satisfactory way.

Can argue about strategy all day long, no one can deny the crowd control Sleepga brings. I brought up Conjurer in 1on1 Coliseum PvP because yes with 1.0 abilities it is very strong nothing is going to one-shot anything in PvP but Conjurer has myriads of abilities to pull off, its not going to win with melee hits (2.0 you need weapon drawn to cast) but that allows it use a Shield and Aegis Boon/Shield Bash for even more survivability. But that doesn't take away from WHMs ability as well. One-on-One vs a Conjurer/WHM you'd be hard pressed to win, least a Lancer/Dragoon can double stun. Mages don't need to worry about positioning to try and land combos, they can just run around and be annoying. But yeah its all speculation, 2.0 will change everything and we can argue about it when we have the info.

I guess as long as people still want the Classes we'll keep them though, gotta be different from ffxi after all.