SE stop doing the "norm"

[Gramul]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

Oh hell yes. You're my new favorite person.

[strallaalaa]

seriously if this game doesn't give me what ffxi gave me it's my last mmo. it's time for these companies to just lose people all together. i don't want to support even buying another disk then leaving a few months later cause that is enough for them these days. tired of gaming for few months or weeks just to say man i hate this mmo or man i got nothing to do or wtf my guild is empty outside of 2hrs for an event every week. carrot on stick ? i don't care i guess that what i like, to grindy? i don't mind at all.

i get it casuals, but it's not them that is the problem, spend 5bucks of SE presidents profits and add some ffxi endgame for people who don't want casual. people don't like it don't do it. i want full linkshell stuff, i want full party missions, i want forced party play, up the wang amounts of it. i want ffxi basically at this point just to remove any question lol. if casuals can't play it then hey in a few months when the game fails again they can make a new mmo ...but i'm done.

quests and dungeons for leveling is the sucks, all mmo's are doing it, what was wrong with keeping it all separate. it only just adds another layer to the game for one. you can flame me to no end now but i'm tired of casuals and tired of all the mmo's catering to them thinking the rest of the players will come for the ride anyway or tough.

where is our A+ mmo that caters to people who want all party play, want challenges, want huge time sinks and full linkshell stuff? i tell you it went to the birds cause it's easier, cheaper and makes them still more money and at end of the day your still the retards that will pay 20bucks for a little dress dlc for your toon. enjoy the planned obsolescence coming to mmo's. /end rant

and b4 you totally flame me you have to tell me what mmo you have played for over a year or 2 that isn't a game like ffxi and not so casual. case closed most likely.

[whoopeeragon]

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

[Gramul]

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

Never heard that one before. Points for being so original. A time machine, how clever. he he ho ho ha ha.

I'm only feeding on the information they gave us. The information that was supposed to excite me.

I think I'm smart enough to understand the scope of the concepts they provided. But like I said, I'm willing to try it out first.

[Ricky]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

my god man I think you are taking this a little seriously

[Starlord]

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

I kinda wish people would read your sig more :/. I hate these personal attacks lately, it's like "If SE won't give me my information, I will personally attack someone until I get my information".

[Maxthunder]

I am a FFXI vet and I know there are plenty of others out there giving XIV a chance. Now based of what is being done and the direction XIV is going isnt something that I like. Now I will give it a fair shake but.... if 2.0 is an easy mode shit box than I know I wont stay and a lot of XI vets will leave as well. Regardless of what SE is trying to do, XIV is going in the wrong direction. Ill be honest I really cant see XIV surviveing past 1 year with the current direction yoshi is taking it, but as I said I will give it 1 year. So Yoshi has to get his shit together and not make mistakes (although I think he is making a huge mistake in the direction thats my opinion).

[Gramul]

my god man I think you are taking this a little seriously

If this isn't the place to talk about MMO game experience and how it relates to 14 in depth, where is?
We spent the last 2 years patiently wating to see how Square could save this game. No duh we're going to take it a little seriously.

Come on.

[Gokulo]

Regardless of what SE is trying to do, XIV is going in the wrong direction.

You know it all, don't you?

[Ruisu]

I am a FFXI vet

Stopped reading there. Playing FFXI doesn't give you some sort of bullshit validity to playing this game. If you don't like the direction it's going, sure, that's fine. But the dev team, and the community decided this game head the direction it is heading long ago. They released the polls and we gave our answers. The community asked for this game.

Also lol at the people saying 1.xx was unique but 2.0 isn't. I guess Tanaka's terrible ideas were what make a game truly unique.