SE stop doing the "norm"

[Rokien]

Jynx GW2 is a great example of that, it's a single player game with multiplayer aspects.

@ Orophin Mabinogi, Mabinogi you could change things up whenever, be whatever whenever. I was a bard(a real bard that made it's OWN songs) and an archer, though if need be, I could quickly equip a sword or anything.

[Orophin]

Well like I said, it's great, but not a huge selling point.

I mean, it didn't keep people for 1.0.

That's because 1.0 was a horrible game. Mostly FF11 purists stuck around more than the first month when it was still assumed you would have to pay a monthly sub.

@ Orophin Mabinogi, Mabinogi you could change things up whenever, be whatever whenever. I was a bard(a real bard that made it's OWN songs) and an archer, though if need be, I could quickly equip a sword or anything.

Heard of it before but never really looked it up. I never saw it got pushed like other franchise MMOs so I'm guessing that's why I've never really heard of it.

Edit: At a glance, just looks like another Korean pay to win MMO, but maybe it's not a fair assessment without having ever played it. "Using special character cards available in the Web Shop, you can choose to play various types of characters" I kinda stopped reading there.

[Gramul]

That's because 1.0 was a horrible game. Mostly FF11 purists stuck around more than the first month when it was still assumed you would have to pay a monthly sub.

Yeah, but I don't think it's a feature that will really make people gravitate towards ARR.

But who knows, we'll see when the time comes.

[Elexia]

I would think the Armory system is unique enough to set FF14 apart from any other "WoW-clone" out there. No other MMO besides FF11 has allowed you to experience everything on one character, to the best of my knowledge. .

More and more are popping up actually. Eden Eternal has the same system and then some...it's only downfall is it's a pure Buy 2 Win "Free to play" game.

[Jocko]

While I appreciate that Square took the route of fixing their product as opposed to screwing over customers who purchased it (Lookin' at you APB), I'm disappointed they took such a baby-with-the-bathwater approach and scrapped the few concepts and ideas they had going for them

What was wrong with 1.0? Well

Poor, rushed world design
Major server and UI issues
Lack of content
Class homogenization and lack of identity
A few bugs here and there

Which of those issues necessitated gutting their entire foundation, replacing it with the barest of most uninspired cop outs? The servers were set to be replaced, the world was being redesigned, the class overhaul worked wonders (I still feel the jobs were completely unnecessary), content was being produced, bugs were being patched, and the UI looked promising. Why couldn't we have had all of that...with 1.0's slower paced, deliberate combat, sense of progression, and realistic fantasy aesthetic? Why was all of that given up? It wasn't bad or detrimental, it was different. It worked well, the only issue people really having being sever related, which was fixed regardless!

They could have made a well polished MMO that played like it's own game, and instead we got a well polished MMO that plays like everything else.

[Arkine]

Any chance of FFXIV being the next FFXI with improvements is long gone.

Never give up.

FFXVII might be!

[GinTama]

FFXI, that should have been your core model for 2.0 not GW2, RIFT, WOW, what have ya.

Please read these comments

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10...ke-to-see-mor/

You can see, most people are tired of how MMOS are being made, and they want them back to how they were(aka FFXI)

"... What made MMOs fun back in the day (and kept me logging in) was the sheer challenge of the content. Quests are fine to me, but do we really need a HUGE question mark? Glowing trails and arrows pointing you EXACTLY where you need to go? All that does is focus the gamer to consume the content as soon as possible. And we all know how much fun that is. Questing alone doesn't make me want to logon everyday. Its the complete experience."

I'm also not saying be stuck in the past, but add new things, be creative try something new that another game hasen't but keep that whole MMO WORLD feel. To me that's adventure, companionship, not, "go here, go there, go here" That's not any types of fun, that's just a good time killer.

i have the same opinion, XIV did not fail be cause it was not up to the mmo standart but be cause of major design flaws.
anyway since we dont know yet how 2.0 will turn out i will not start to complain now.
But let them be warned, not all ppl want a compilation of standart mmo things but innovative new things to explore and a world where you can immerse yourself.

[Preypacer]

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

[Rokien]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

*claps* /bows

[RudyFails]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

I'm quoting this entire thing and for one reason. It'll now be up in full in 3 straight posts. Pay attention.

Preypacer, respect. *fistbump*