SE stop doing the "norm"

[Orophin]

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

[Rokien]

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

I don't have that time anymore, though, doesn't mean I don't want it, just because we don't have the time no more, doesn't mean millions of other people don't, why don't you go play a game(every mmo now) that doesn't eat your time. I want a game that lasts, so do others, Look at whats being released right now. GW2, complete the map you complete the game, doesn't take long, Tera, same thinig but go here go here, go there, you win!

[Ingolf]

I don't have that time anymore, though, doesn't mean I don't want it, just because we don't have the time no more, doesn't mean millions of other people don't, why don't you go play a game(every mmo now) that doesn't eat your time. I want a game that lasts, so do others, Look at whats being released right now. GW2, complete the map you complete the game, doesn't take long, Tera, same thinig but go here go here, go there, you win!

Not even slightly.

[Preypacer]

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

[Rokien]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

*claps* /bows

[RudyFails]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

I'm quoting this entire thing and for one reason. It'll now be up in full in 3 straight posts. Pay attention.

Preypacer, respect. *fistbump*

[Gramul]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

Oh hell yes. You're my new favorite person.

[Ricky]

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

my god man I think you are taking this a little seriously

[Rustyhagun]

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

OP is not really talking about 8 hr game runs. OP is talking about over doing the hand holding.

I see a lot of people in, real life, they use those stupid gps devices. No one know how to read a map anymore, and their sense of direction is non existent. I don't get it. and then they will be traveling to a place, or even their own city and they will get lost when the gps breaks down on them in the middle of the road. Society has changed a lot and everyone whats stuff as fast as they can get it.

I too would like to see, not so much hold handing, where quests and missions are involved. Read the damn text, the npc is talking about, people and figure out where to go after that. Now when we start off in the direction given there are no markers on the map. Maybe as we get close their can be ques on the map, like the highlighted circle starting to show itself gradually on the map.


I've said it before, but gamers of this generation have gotten soft. Everyone wants to rush to lvl cap and click click click, past the lore, story, missions. No one wants to experience story any more. gamers are lazy and don't want to read the text on the screen. Yoshi and Dev team should have npc's that give test about the story and to progress you have to answer the questions correctly, or no end game content for you.

FFXIV needs to be about the Journey. This will make the game it's own and feel more like FFXI, in that core aspect. Its maddens me that people don't realize the amazing story we are going to get in 2.0. Just the setup, for the end of 1.0's story was amazing. I will be reading every sing word npc's are saying to me. I hope there are quest were people have to answer back story questions of what they have encountered so far. That would make users acknowledge the story, that's being presented to them.

Everything else I see as ok. the UI is fine, I like how it looks and plays. Plus, I have macros that I can easily use instead, if I want the FFXI playstyle mechanic to come back. I did it in 1.0.

I know 2.0 is going to have big challenges. Raven hard, Ifrit extreme and Garuda hard, where no joke in 1.0. And that was just stuff to tide us over.

Yoshi we just want the the map markers to go away for quest locations. I think that is the biggest complaint for the side quests and missions. Leve's can stay as they are.

I feel casuals will set this game up to fail. Its time to go back 10years, where challenge and rewards are concerned). Put 3 things in the game that no other mmo has. That would help give FFIXV an identity.

Core things taken from FFXI but evolved and made its own.

Add things to make the game feel rewarding:
--Bring back some sort of grind'n(level'n a mix between vanilla ff11 and FF14 ver1.0)
--Have rare/hard to obtain, lowbie gear that stands well with high tier gear (eg. Leaping Boots, PeacockCharm..etc)
--Do not give everything on a silver platter. Your game(ARR) will not last 6 months. You need longevity. People will keep on playing if they are still trying to reach end game. Think of it like crack.
--Make the game hard, but fun for casuals to log in and do some semi-challenging content for 2-4 hrs.
--Samurai's should look like my sig.(not even joking)
--Make level'n to cap take 2 months to get to. For someone that plays 4-5hrs a day. (Not even joking) Have people want to get home from work to pull in 1 level in that night. No rush to lvl cap, for now(when we reach that 99cap it could be faster like in FFXI)
--Make chocobo breeding take a month to have a full adult. like in FFXI(not even joking)
--Plan ahead with gear, do not give us so much flashy gear at lvl 50, and then at lvl 99 we look like glitter models. FF14 should keep that gritty look and cool art concept.

Make this game the new crack for MMO's. Make end game a long term goal to reach. Or this game wont last 6months<---you have been warned Yoshi-DevTeam

People saying otherwise want this game to fail. Casual is no longer a formula that works to have a fun, successful, longed lived pay subscription MMO. To go ftp is to admit defeat and that your product couldn't stand the test to time with a pay to play model(FF11 is a great example of people still wanting to pay for crack). We have seen it with other mmo's. Starwars:Old republic (casual and failed now ftp), SecretWorld (casual and failed now ftp), Aion, LordofthRings (casual and failed ftp), Warhammer.

-Its a wiser mover, to have someone complain about taking forever to reach level cap, but keeps on playing as they want to reach it(hooked on that crack). Than to have someone complain about reaching level cap in 2 weeks and have nothing to do because end game is so monotonous.
As they leave along with all the other hard cores, and you(SE) realize hard cores make an mmo thrive & not the casuals, because a casual will always get bored and quit playing after 30mins -1hr and start watching there favorite show on t.v, because they are casuals and guess what they could care less.

They stop playing, as well the hardcores because you gave them an easy game and it does not stimulate their brains enough like FFXI for them to keep playing and paying. 6months down the road ffxiv is on a ftp model. While FFXI is still p2p.

You have been warned Yoshi & friends. You all are being peer pressured by the casuals and its going to bite you all in the butt.