The growing entitlement issues of the casuals

[Rentahamster]

There's a lot of confusion recently since the terms "causal" and "hardcore" mean different things to different people.

IMO, the best rewards should go to the players with the best skills.

IF "casual" = "not skilled" and "hardcore" = "skilled", then yes, the best rewards should go to the hardcore players.


But, if "casual" = "can only play 1-5 hours a week" and "hardcore" = "plays 5 hours a day", then the best rewards should go to either player, since time spent playing this game is not at all an indicator of intelligence, strategy, skill, and cooperation. In this definition, if both players are of the same aptitude, they will both reap good rewards eventually, with the hardcore player getting them sooner on account of more time spent in game.


In the end, the good stuff should be rewarded to the players who are good enough to overcome challenges, regardless of how much time they are able to stay logged in.

Being able to camp a NM spawn for 24 hours straight is not a challenge.

Being able to defeat a NM that requires concentration, skill, strategy and cooperation IS a challenge.

[solracht]

There's a lot of confusion recently since the terms "causal" and "hardcore" mean different things to different people.

IMO, the best rewards should go to the players with the best skills.

IF "casual" = "not skilled" and "hardcore" = "skilled", then yes, the best rewards should go to the hardcore players.


But, if "casual" = "can only play 1-5 hours a week" and "hardcore" = "plays 5 hours a day", then the best rewards should go to either player, since time spent playing this game is not at all an indicator of intelligence, strategy, skill, and cooperation. In this definition, if both players are of the same aptitude, they will both reap good rewards eventually, with the hardcore player getting them sooner on account of more time spent in game.


In the end, the good stuff should be rewarded to the players who are good enough to overcome challenges, regardless of how much time they are able to stay logged in.

Being able to camp a NM spawn for 24 hours straight is not a challenge.

Being able to defeat a NM that requires concentration, skill, strategy and cooperation IS a challenge.

This thread is now over. Quoting for emphasis.

[Kazahashi]

This thread is now over. Quoting for emphasis.

Agreed.

I'm personally tired of all the casual whining. I said this in another thread and I'll say it here as well. In the MMO market, you have pretty much 90% of the games being catered towards casuals. That's a lot of game choices there, with the remaining 10% being moderate to hardcore.....EVE being probably the most hardcore MMO I've come across.

My point is, is casuals can't have everything they want. If the game is too hardcore for you, then play something else. The designers are allowed to make the game as casual or hardcore as they want to, just let them take it down the path they feel is right. There's no need for the hardcores OR the casuals to come here and whine and complain like they're entitled to something from the developer. I've never purchased an MMO and been like "OMG this game isn't hardcore enough", I just quit and move on to something else (Rift, as an example of this).

The problem here, is the same as I've said before too. SE has too big a line of communication between the players, to the point where the players are acting like they're somehow a part of the development team or something....some ideas are great sure, some input is nice, but damn, let the developers make the game THEY intended or are intending to make. It's not like you don't have options....it's like going to a store and whining cause Skittles aren't sweet enough, well, pick something else then, no one's putting a gun to your head.

Either way, I could care less if the game gets more casual or more hardcore....if it gets more casual, I'll go play TERA or something else down the line (cause I hate casual MMO's anymore), and if it gets more hardcore, cool....but I'm not going to sit online and act like the developers work for me or that I'm such a VIP in the company that they just HAVE to listen to me....cause I'm not, and they don't.

[Xeno]

Agreed.

I'm personally tired of all the casual whining. I said this in another thread and I'll say it here as well. In the MMO market, you have pretty much 90% of the games being catered towards casuals. That's a lot of game choices there, with the remaining 10% being moderate to hardcore.....EVE being probably the most hardcore MMO I've come across.

My point is, is casuals can't have everything they want. If the game is too hardcore for you, then play something else. The designers are allowed to make the game as casual or hardcore as they want to, just let them take it down the path they feel is right. There's no need for the hardcores OR the casuals to come here and whine and complain like they're entitled to something from the developer. I've never purchased an MMO and been like "OMG this game isn't hardcore enough", I just quit and move on to something else (Rift, as an example of this).

The problem here, is the same as I've said before too. SE has too big a line of communication between the players, to the point where the players are acting like they're somehow a part of the development team or something....some ideas are great sure, some input is nice, but damn, let the developers make the game THEY intended or are intending to make. It's not like you don't have options....it's like going to a store and whining cause Skittles aren't sweet enough, well, pick something else then, no one's putting a gun to your head.

Either way, I could care less if the game gets more casual or more hardcore....if it gets more casual, I'll go play TERA or something else down the line (cause I hate casual MMO's anymore), and if it gets more hardcore, cool....but I'm not going to sit online and act like the developers work for me or that I'm such a VIP in the company that they just HAVE to listen to me....cause I'm not, and they don't.

Exactly.
/10chars

[Rentahamster]

The problem here, is the same as I've said before too. SE has too big a line of communication between the players, to the point where the players are acting like they're somehow a part of the development team or something....some ideas are great sure, some input is nice, but damn, let the developers make the game THEY intended or are intending to make.

This is a fair point, yes, but I do have one bit of contention with it. They already had a chance to make the game they intended to make. That was the game they released at launch. The rest of us were criticizing it all through beta, but they didn't listen one bit and in the end, Tanaka gave us the "sorry, but we were too busy fixing technical bugs to implement new gameplay changes"

Well, valid excuse or not, they made the game that they wanted to make, and didn't bother to utilize any of the fan input or criticism. It turned out to be a very bad game.

Hopefully this time, they can get a feeling for what the fans want to play, and make a game that can cater to the largest playerbase possible without leaving any particular niche of gamers feeling ignored or marginalized.

[Kazahashi]

Hopefully this time, they can get a feeling for what the fans want to play, and make a game that can cater to the largest playerbase possible without leaving any particular niche of gamers feeling ignored or marginalized.

Sure, but at the end of the day, it needs to be their choice, not yours, or anyone elses what path it goes down. Tanaka didn't listen to beta testers....last time I checked Tanaka isn't running the show anymore. Let Yoshi make the game he wants to make, and just chill out with this stupid MOAR CASUAL bs....it's a game, if you don't like it....again, you have TONS of other options. It's not like XIV is the only MMO, or the only game, on the market right now.

I mean, I could sit here and throw back that XI caters towards hardcores more than casuals, and that game is pretty damn popular, and has been for years. You don't need WoW sub numbers to have a good game....or even a successful one....that logic is a tad bit flawed. You don't need to cater to the "largest playerbase"....lol, which, last time I checked, the largest playerbase in XI, isn't casuals, and all those folks, including myself, have been loyal customers for years. Most of the "fans" are XI vets, so....yea, I'll just end my post right there, I don't think anymore needs to be said.

But then again, like I said, if it gets more casual....well, whatever, I have other things I can play. Cause I won't be playing a game that gives everyone hand-outs just for logging in and running outside of a city for an hour a week, and I don't even play for that long....maybe 2-3 hours an evening, if that....and I still manage to have fun in this, or XI.

[Kazimir]

Sure, but at the end of the day, it needs to be their choice, not yours, or anyone elses what path it goes down. Tanaka didn't listen to beta testers....last time I checked Tanaka isn't running the show anymore. Let Yoshi make the game he wants to make, and just chill out with this stupid MOAR CASUAL bs....it's a game, if you don't like it....again, you have TONS of other options. It's not like XIV is the only MMO, or the only game, on the market right now.

I mean, I could sit here and throw back that XI caters towards hardcores more than casuals, and that game is pretty damn popular, and has been for years. You don't need WoW sub numbers to have a good game....or even a successful one....that logic is a tad bit flawed. You don't need to cater to the "largest playerbase"....lol, which, last time I checked, the largest playerbase in XI, isn't casuals, and all those folks, including myself, have been loyal customers for years. Most of the "fans" are XI vets, so....yea, I'll just end my post right there, I don't think anymore needs to be said.

But then again, like I said, if it gets more casual....well, whatever, I have other things I can play. Cause I won't be playing a game that gives everyone hand-outs just for logging in and running outside of a city for an hour a week, and I don't even play for that long....maybe 2-3 hours an evening, if that....and I still manage to have fun in this, or XI.

Preach my brotha, preach!

[Kazahashi]

Preach my brotha, preach!

Lol, I'm serious man, the logic is just plain stupid.

"I want to login an hour a week and have the same stuff as the person that plays 8 hours a day"

How in the hell does that make ANY sense at all? I mean, even in single player RPG's (like FFVII), if I only spend an hour a week playing, I won't be that far in the game, and I also probably won't have the time or effort to sit down and grind so I can beat all the secret bosses and stuff....it just...makes NO sense to me how these people can use that logic, at all. Maybe you guys that just can't handle having to actually WORK for something need to go play some Farmville or something similar. I don't play nearly as often as the hardcores do, and I love the hardcore style of MMO....it gives me something to WORK towards and for, regardless if it takes me longer, or hell....even if it takes me months.

[Rentahamster]

Sure, but at the end of the day, it needs to be their choice, not yours, or anyone elses what path it goes down. Tanaka didn't listen to beta testers....last time I checked Tanaka isn't running the show anymore. Let Yoshi make the game he wants to make

Agreed, but if Yoshida makes the same mistakes that Tanaka did, e.g. not listening to player feedback, then we might not see success. Not to say that he should give in to any and all player demands - far from it. Some of the player-generated ideas are horrible. I have confidence that Yoshida has a good sense of design to filter out the good from the bad.

But then again, like I said, if it gets more casual....well, whatever, I have other things I can play.

What I was getting at in my last post was that the casual vs. hardcore paradigm is not a zero-sum game. Adding more "casual" content does not necessarily take away from the experience of the "hardcore", unless the implementation is flawed.

Hopefully this time, they can get a feeling for what the fans want to play, and make a game that can cater to the largest playerbase possible without leaving any particular niche of gamers feeling ignored or marginalized.

My approach to game design is that you can have a system in place that on its face is simple, yet has great depth and complexity should you choose to further your investment in the game.

Take chess or checkers, for example. Both games have fairly simple rules, and anyone can play casually, yet there is also a large base of "hardcore" players and grandmasters who show us the infinite complexity of such a simple game, provided you have the skills to back it up.

This same concept applies to video games too. Take Street Fighter - A simple game with simple rules that casual players enjoy immensely. However, there is also a group of hardcore players who enjoy it just as much as the casuals, and derive their own entertainment from the game as well.

Chess, checkers, Street Fighter, whatever game it is, if it's GOOD, it'll accommodate all types of players, both casual and hardcore.

I believe that Final Fantasy 14 can be fixed in such a way as to make the game fun, first and foremost, but also have a simple yet deep gameplay that everyone can enjoy, regardless of their "casual" or "hardcore" label.

[Xeno]

There's a lot of confusion recently since the terms "causal" and "hardcore" mean different things to different people.

IMO, the best rewards should go to the players with the best skills.

IF "casual" = "not skilled" and "hardcore" = "skilled", then yes, the best rewards should go to the hardcore players.


But, if "casual" = "can only play 1-5 hours a week" and "hardcore" = "plays 5 hours a day", then the best rewards should go to either player, since time spent playing this game is not at all an indicator of intelligence, strategy, skill, and cooperation. In this definition, if both players are of the same aptitude, they will both reap good rewards eventually, with the hardcore player getting them sooner on account of more time spent in game.


In the end, the good stuff should be rewarded to the players who are good enough to overcome challenges, regardless of how much time they are able to stay logged in.

Being able to camp a NM spawn for 24 hours straight is not a challenge.

Being able to defeat a NM that requires concentration, skill, strategy and cooperation IS a challenge.

Oh, I completely agree. It's just the more and more I read these forums (and others) the more people I see that want an "I win" button. Camping an NM for 24 hours is stupid, but camping it for like 10 minutes when it pops every 24 hours on the hour isn't a bad system. It prevents a huge influx of the item into the game, which is good, since it is a rare item. I'm just growing tired of the casuals who don't want a challenge because they don't want to spend the time in-game to either get good or get the items they want. Because of that crowd is why this game isn't challenging. SE heard their cries...