If someone makes a deadly boss mods type addon for ARR would you use it?

[ShinigamiKayla]

but then it holds back the person who cannot dedicate a ton of hours to a game a working person who has a fulll sched what of them? should they be out of content because they are stuck running with scrubs when they get the chance... content should be hard but not to hard that the common gamer... the ones who really support a game... yeh go figure full on hardcore end gamers are not the main ones who play a game usually they are like 30% if any of the player base... the common gamer who pays 15 dollars a month to play and does not get to do the content because they cannot keep on par because either busy and cant dedicate time to learning...

[Jeronlmo]

but then it holds back the person who cannot dedicate a ton of hours to a game a working person who has a fulll sched what of them? should they be out of content because they are stuck running with scrubs when they get the chance... content should be hard but not to hard that the common gamer... the ones who really support a game... yeh go figure full on hardcore end gamers are not the main ones who play a game usually they are like 30% if any of the player base... the common gamer who pays 15 dollars a month to play and does not get to do the content because they cannot keep on par because either busy and cant dedicate time to learning...

There really is no nice way to say it, but if people put in more time than you, they should get more, I have a full-time job, I have family, that doesnt mean the game should be nerfed because of me, you should never be on-par people that endlessly play, thats just rediculous, this same argument was used in 11 but thank god it didnt have official forums.

People that play less have access to 100% content, your rl might stop/hold you back, but thats your choice, how is that fair to hold back every other person that plays the game to your lvl basically. In 11 I started playing when I was 12, I did nothing but casual ls's (excluding my sky ls) until 4yrs later, I didnt know anything about endgame until then, I just didnt see it in day-to-day game play, it wasnt thrown in your face and I was happy with what I had. If your a casual player, you should accept this and what you can accomplish in a given day, you can learn stratagy by watching video's if you have less play time, read guides.

Ive seen so many people on FF14 that refuse to even look at a guide or watch a video, its just pothetic, its something so simple to do, but they actually rely on people to tell them what to do mid-run, endgame ls's atleast imo are not for training, its for doing endgame.

This new idea of "I pay the same sub as you should I should be able to do anything at any time" is complete BS, even in 11 people paid the same sub and all had access to all content, it was the drive/dedication to get to the content that kept people away.

[ShinigamiKayla]

There really is no nice way to say it, but if people put in more time than you, they should get more, I have a full-time job, I have family, that doesnt mean the game should be nerfed because of me, you should never be on-par people that endlessly play, thats just rediculous, this same argument was used in 11 but thank god it didnt have official forums.

People that play less have access to 100% content, your rl might stop/hold you back, but thats your choice, how is that fair to hold back every other person that plays the game to your lvl basically. In 11 I started playing when I was 12, I did nothing but casual ls's (excluding my sky ls) until 4yrs later, I didnt know anything about endgame until then, I just didnt see it in day-to-day game play, it wasnt thrown in your face and I was happy with what I had. If your a casual player, you should accept this and what you can accomplish in a given day, you can learn stratagy by watching video's if you have less play time, read guides.

Ive seen so many people on FF14 that refuse to even look at a guide or watch a video, its just pothetic, its something so simple to do, but they actually rely on people to tell them what to do mid-run, endgame ls's atleast imo are not for training, its for doing endgame.

This new idea of "I pay the same sub as you should I should be able to do anything at any time" is complete BS, even in 11 people paid the same sub and all had access to all content, it was the drive/dedication to get to the content that kept people away.

your only endgame experience was in XI? didn't in a previous post I stated something about that... you want to appeal to a larger audience not just those that played XI... i played XI since I was 12 until I was 20 was my first MMO I also however on the other hand also played WoW and a ton of other MMOs in which I did all endgame... hell maybe I played to many MMOs but you can repeat the same patterns and expect a lot of new people to play... screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...

[Jeronlmo]

your only endgame experience was in XI? didn't in a previous post I stated something about that... you want to appeal to a larger audience not just those that played XI... i played XI since I was 12 until I was 20 was my first MMO I also however on the other hand also played WoW and a ton of other MMOs in which I did all endgame... hell maybe I played to many MMOs but you can repeat the same patterns and expect a lot of new people to play... screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...

I have also played other games/MMO's, own my own business, and have a family, its not about feeling special from playing 11, its from going from a good game design, to a game design that caters to gimps who dont already know to get out of the fire, you have to be told.

[Preypacer]

screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...

You seriously think the people who have more time to play think they're "special" because of it? Really?

So, the issue isn't that people who can play more are able to get farther, it's that they think they're special because they can?

That sounds an awful lot unlike a rational argument, and an awful lot like projection.

I'd love to see a show of hands here among those with more time, to see how many of them think "they're special" because of it. I predict the number of those who do would be rather low.

If you take a look at the whole of complaints that people come up with for MMORPGs - and even non-MMORPGs - not just any one specific complaint, you begin to see a picture of the overall attitude people have toward these games, and toward others playing them. The one thing that becomes apparent is that there's a lot of self-entitled, jealous people out there who can't stand the idea that someone else is farther along than them in any context - levels, gear, etc.

Someone saying "it's not fair that people with more time can make more progress than me" is about the purest, most direct example of that jealousy that I can think of. There's so much implicit in that statement, it's amazing when you think about it.

I mean, it's gotta be obvious to someone saying it that they can get what others have, and they can progress as far as others have. There's nothing stopping them from doing so (except themselves). So what's their issue? That they will have to put in the time and effort others did to get to that point; and they don't want to. Hence, we see arguments for "making leveling faster", "make content easier", etc. etc.

See, I would contend it's not the ones with more time to play who "think they're special". It's those who have less time to play (or claim to), or who come in with unreasonable expectations, who tend to consistently rise to the surface as the most entitled and "special". The ones with more time are generally just playing. Think of the arguments you see for making things easier/faster, etc...

Here's a few off the top of my head - all of which are 100% perfect examples of a self-entitled, "I'm special" attitude, mixed in with a bit of condescension and obvious bitterness:

- "I have a wife and family and a job. I don't have the time I used to have to play these games. They need to make them less time-consuming so people like me can make more progress and keep up with those with more time to play". - Wrong. Your real life circumstances don't entitle you to anything. Even as far back as EQ1, people with all of that, even businesses of their own, played the game and had a ball. How? They had realistic expectations of what they could accomplish in the game given their available time. They didn't expect the game to bend to their "special circumstances".

- "Sorry, but just because I don't sit in my mother's basement and game 24/7 doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to keep up with those who do". Wrong, and extremely ignorant, considering you don't know the circumstances of every person who happens to have more time to play. You also don't know that people have more time to play. Some people are simply more efficient and organized at getting through content with the time they have. A friend of mine had far less time to play XI than me, but still managed to get much farther than I did. How? His time online was generally much more focused and directed toward getting specific tasks done.

- "Games are supposed to be fun. I don't consider a long leveling curve to be fun. It's tedious and it needs to go away. MMOs are all about end-game anyway. Game developers are stupid and just haven't figured that out yet". (this is most often argued, I find, by people for whom "getting to level cap ASAP is their #1 priority, so the self-serving bias is rather obvious). Game developers not creating a game designed to cater specifically to "you" does not make them "stupid". It makes you stupid for choosing to play a game that clearly doesn't fit with your time/expectations.

- "People who prefer longer leveling curves or slower progression are just masochists. No one in their right mind would enjoy that." (spoken primarily by people who, like above, feel "end game is all that matters", whose primary goal is "level cap ASAP, and who assumes that's how everyone should think, because they personally do). Not everyone looks for the same experience in a MMO. Some enjoy the journey. Those people aren't "masochists". They just have a different approach to the game. That "you" don't understand, or can't accept, how they can enjoy a play style that you don't doesn't make them masochists. It makes you closed minded.

In every single case - 100% of them - it traces back to the person wanting the game faster/easier/more convenient feeling that their particular situation makes them "special" and entitled, and that the MMO world should revolve around their particular circumstances, or the devs are clueless and the whole thing is wrong.

Incidentally, there are people out there with less time to play (jobs, families, etc) who don't think they're a special case, who don't feel the genre revolves around them and their personal situation, who do realize they're one of many thousands of people also playing the game, and who still prefer the game to not hand everything to them. So not only is the whole "not a lot of time to play" argument a hollow one, it's not even a consistent one.

So, regarding the "people thinking they're special". No, ShinigamiKayla. I think you have that backwards. It's not the people with more time to play who think they're special. It's the people who, for myriad reasons, feel the game needs to be changed to cater to them personally who do.

Someone said elsewhere in the thread that people should stop worrying about what others are doing and just play the game. I tend to agree with that argument. Of course, the person who said it did so in defense of using add-ons. I'm using it regarding this whole "oh, they have more time to play. It's not fair. The game needs to be changed so "they don't have an advantage"" thing. Stop worrying about how much time others have to play, how much others have accomplished, or anything like that... Just play the game for yourself and have fun based on your own progression.

Of course, I know that'll never happen. Many people seem to base their enjoyment of a game entirely around how far others are, and how much stuff others have acquired, rather than what they've done and how far they've gotten. A lot of petty jealousy out there.