If someone makes a deadly boss mods type addon for ARR would you use it?

[Jeronlmo]

your only endgame experience was in XI? didn't in a previous post I stated something about that... you want to appeal to a larger audience not just those that played XI... i played XI since I was 12 until I was 20 was my first MMO I also however on the other hand also played WoW and a ton of other MMOs in which I did all endgame... hell maybe I played to many MMOs but you can repeat the same patterns and expect a lot of new people to play... screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...

I have also played other games/MMO's, own my own business, and have a family, its not about feeling special from playing 11, its from going from a good game design, to a game design that caters to gimps who dont already know to get out of the fire, you have to be told.

[Preypacer]

screw the 30% that think they are special because they dedicate days of their life playing a game... maybe on the other hand they should go out and get a life... its unhealthy and you can tell who they are by how they act towards others...

You seriously think the people who have more time to play think they're "special" because of it? Really?

So, the issue isn't that people who can play more are able to get farther, it's that they think they're special because they can?

That sounds an awful lot unlike a rational argument, and an awful lot like projection.

I'd love to see a show of hands here among those with more time, to see how many of them think "they're special" because of it. I predict the number of those who do would be rather low.

If you take a look at the whole of complaints that people come up with for MMORPGs - and even non-MMORPGs - not just any one specific complaint, you begin to see a picture of the overall attitude people have toward these games, and toward others playing them. The one thing that becomes apparent is that there's a lot of self-entitled, jealous people out there who can't stand the idea that someone else is farther along than them in any context - levels, gear, etc.

Someone saying "it's not fair that people with more time can make more progress than me" is about the purest, most direct example of that jealousy that I can think of. There's so much implicit in that statement, it's amazing when you think about it.

I mean, it's gotta be obvious to someone saying it that they can get what others have, and they can progress as far as others have. There's nothing stopping them from doing so (except themselves). So what's their issue? That they will have to put in the time and effort others did to get to that point; and they don't want to. Hence, we see arguments for "making leveling faster", "make content easier", etc. etc.

See, I would contend it's not the ones with more time to play who "think they're special". It's those who have less time to play (or claim to), or who come in with unreasonable expectations, who tend to consistently rise to the surface as the most entitled and "special". The ones with more time are generally just playing. Think of the arguments you see for making things easier/faster, etc...

Here's a few off the top of my head - all of which are 100% perfect examples of a self-entitled, "I'm special" attitude, mixed in with a bit of condescension and obvious bitterness:

- "I have a wife and family and a job. I don't have the time I used to have to play these games. They need to make them less time-consuming so people like me can make more progress and keep up with those with more time to play". - Wrong. Your real life circumstances don't entitle you to anything. Even as far back as EQ1, people with all of that, even businesses of their own, played the game and had a ball. How? They had realistic expectations of what they could accomplish in the game given their available time. They didn't expect the game to bend to their "special circumstances".

- "Sorry, but just because I don't sit in my mother's basement and game 24/7 doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to keep up with those who do". Wrong, and extremely ignorant, considering you don't know the circumstances of every person who happens to have more time to play. You also don't know that people have more time to play. Some people are simply more efficient and organized at getting through content with the time they have. A friend of mine had far less time to play XI than me, but still managed to get much farther than I did. How? His time online was generally much more focused and directed toward getting specific tasks done.

- "Games are supposed to be fun. I don't consider a long leveling curve to be fun. It's tedious and it needs to go away. MMOs are all about end-game anyway. Game developers are stupid and just haven't figured that out yet". (this is most often argued, I find, by people for whom "getting to level cap ASAP is their #1 priority, so the self-serving bias is rather obvious). Game developers not creating a game designed to cater specifically to "you" does not make them "stupid". It makes you stupid for choosing to play a game that clearly doesn't fit with your time/expectations.

- "People who prefer longer leveling curves or slower progression are just masochists. No one in their right mind would enjoy that." (spoken primarily by people who, like above, feel "end game is all that matters", whose primary goal is "level cap ASAP, and who assumes that's how everyone should think, because they personally do). Not everyone looks for the same experience in a MMO. Some enjoy the journey. Those people aren't "masochists". They just have a different approach to the game. That "you" don't understand, or can't accept, how they can enjoy a play style that you don't doesn't make them masochists. It makes you closed minded.

In every single case - 100% of them - it traces back to the person wanting the game faster/easier/more convenient feeling that their particular situation makes them "special" and entitled, and that the MMO world should revolve around their particular circumstances, or the devs are clueless and the whole thing is wrong.

Incidentally, there are people out there with less time to play (jobs, families, etc) who don't think they're a special case, who don't feel the genre revolves around them and their personal situation, who do realize they're one of many thousands of people also playing the game, and who still prefer the game to not hand everything to them. So not only is the whole "not a lot of time to play" argument a hollow one, it's not even a consistent one.

So, regarding the "people thinking they're special". No, ShinigamiKayla. I think you have that backwards. It's not the people with more time to play who think they're special. It's the people who, for myriad reasons, feel the game needs to be changed to cater to them personally who do.

Someone said elsewhere in the thread that people should stop worrying about what others are doing and just play the game. I tend to agree with that argument. Of course, the person who said it did so in defense of using add-ons. I'm using it regarding this whole "oh, they have more time to play. It's not fair. The game needs to be changed so "they don't have an advantage"" thing. Stop worrying about how much time others have to play, how much others have accomplished, or anything like that... Just play the game for yourself and have fun based on your own progression.

Of course, I know that'll never happen. Many people seem to base their enjoyment of a game entirely around how far others are, and how much stuff others have acquired, rather than what they've done and how far they've gotten. A lot of petty jealousy out there.

[Promethevs]

should get rid of filtered combat logs while you're at it, they're obviously telling you what to do, and are thus bots.

you get about as much added value information from "You are taking damage from fire! That might not be good." as you do from "The air around Garuda begins to warp and bend"

[Jeronlmo]

You really dont see a difference from something thats default in the game, and player-made addons (bots) that actually tell you want to do (get out of the fire)?

[Promethevs]

dungeon finder has nothing to do with addons.

on another point, the golden age of WoW (before dungeon finder) is largely considered to be TBC through Ulduar, where encounters were designed with addon usage in mind (the trend of designing to addons probably started very early on with blackwing lair, the 2nd raid of the original package).

some of the most dynamic encounters were introduced in this era. even with the addons certain bosses would take a month (the most being 5-6 months with Yogg'Saron with 0 titans) to take down by professional raiding guilds.

the notion that addons will make even the scrubbiest player a master and that the game will be played in ezmode is a poorly conceived misconception with absolutely no basis. there's always the potential to make a difficult encounter for even the best of players, addons or not. if you can't see that this is true, you don't realize just how much freedom you have in games like FFXIV in the way of margin of error on performance. the gap between the most difficult encounter here and the most difficult encounter in WoW's history is staggering.

the notion that addons also breed a game full of retards, ruining it for everyone who's awesome also has no basis.

[Duelle]

some of the most dynamic encounters were introduced in this era. even with the addons certain bosses would take a month (the most being 5-6 months with Yogg'Saron with 0 titans) to take down by professional raiding guilds.

the notion that addons will make even the scrubbiest player a master and that the game will be played in ezmode is a poorly conceived misconception with absolutely no basis. there's always the potential to make a difficult encounter for even the best of players, addons or not. if you can't see that this is true, you don't realize just how much freedom you have in games like FFXIV in the way of margin of error on performance. the gap between the most difficult encounter here and the most difficult encounter in WoW's history is staggering.

the notion that addons also breed a game full of retards, ruining it for everyone who's awesome also has no basis.

Indeed. Doesn't stop some from thinking modern MMOs and the changes to the genre that came with them are the devil, sadly.

This new idea of "I pay the same sub as you should I should be able to do anything at any time" is complete BS, even in 11 people paid the same sub and all had access to all content, it was the drive/dedication to get to the content that kept people away.

Actually no, it was the fact that failure had stupidly high costs to the point a reasonable person would eventually say "to hell with it" and try to find something else to do in-game. That's why Al'taieu was the playground of the l337 for as long as it was, and then when it was opened to others via the encounter nerfs and removal of the level caps in CoP zones, the little snowflakes who thought themselves big men stomped their feet and cried.

Trolling aside (really? addons = botting = RMT?), DBM and Bigwigs make things more visible. It does not automate things for you. Not even stuff like Decursor, Healbot, or Pally Power automate things for you.

The one addon I really didn't like I think* was called Pally-power. It literally told you what button to push for your tanking and DPS rotations. Completely took out the need to think about what key to press, when, and why.

You're probably thinking of RetCLC. Pally Power kept track of what blessings needed to be cast on the raid.

*puts on Scholar's Mortarboard* Back in WotLK, Paladin blessings could be cast on everyone of the same class in one shot through the use of Greater Blessings (so if my paladin cast Greater Blessing of Might on Pwnzu the warrior, every warrior in the raid would also receive the buff). The caveat is that you're limited to one blessing per paladin. So what you'd do is bring multiple paladins in the raid and assign them to give different blessings on the raid. So if Tralf the prot pally was assigned Blessing of Kings, Sevalis the ret pally was assigned Blessing of Might, and Astarian the Holy Pally was assigned Blessing of Wisdom, PallyPower would help us keep track of when our buffs were up, and most importantly, who needed the buff during prep phases before boss fights. Made things a lot easier over having to click 40-then-25 raid frames to see if buffs were up.

Needless to say, I loved that addon. *takes off Scholar's Mortarboard*

RetCLC was programmed to show you a picture of the attack you had to press, as Ret gameplay at the time was build around a priority order under a first-come-first-serve rule. Ret had no real rotation so it had to go by priority.

[Xatsh]

Dungeon finder is for the crappy players who no one wants to play with in their party.

IF players are too lazy to figure out a strat or do research to figure out a fight from community knowledge... they are the people who completely fail to begin with.

Baby hand holding needs to be removed... casual who cannot take the time to figure out a hard fight and cry need to just be told to leave the game. It is add ons like this that ruin mmos, and it forces the devs to develop content with it in mind.

[Shougun]

Dungeon finder is for the crappy players who no one wants to play with in their party.

IF players are too lazy to figure out a strat or do research to figure out a fight from community knowledge... they are the people who completely fail to begin with.

Baby hand holding needs to be removed... casual who cannot take the time to figure out a hard fight and cry need to just be told to leave the game. It is add ons like this that ruin mmos, and it forces the devs to develop content with it in mind.

No one goes into a fight without being told what to do unless they are the first ones to fight that boss - or its an easy boss.

Joined a raven party first thing that happened - two paragraphs of what to do if X happens. If not that there are always guides that get proliferated through chats and forums. Or in moogle fights there is always the shouter for moogle order so everyone attacks the same mog.

Its lovely to think hand holding is squashed without addons or is being done with addons. But its being done either way - at least this way you didnt have to type it yourself.

[Jeronlmo]

No one goes into a fight without being told what to do unless they are the first ones to fight that boss - or its an easy boss.

Joined a raven party first thing that happened - two paragraphs of what to do if X happens. If not that there are always guides that get proliferated through chats and forums. Or in moogle fights there is always the shouter for moogle order so everyone attacks the same mog.

Its lovely to think hand holding is squashed without addons or is being done with addons. But its being done either way - at least this way you didnt have to type it yourself.

1 relies on human input, the other does not. You are not good/skilled/tallented, your bot is.

[Promethevs]

1 relies on human input, the other does not. You are not good/skilled/tallented, your bot is.

you are not good/skilled/talented, your combat log is. how silly does this sound?