WHM gets the short stick

[Mujen]

OP. Research. Recent research. Do some.

- What am I researching? The fact that the tooltip was never fixed? Have you researched every ability for tooltip errors? Don't blame the new player for developer laziness. Oh right "actions" = weaponskills.. therefore: action bar = weaponskill bar.. MAKES SO MUCH SENSE! DUH! OBVIOUSLY! Noob!

OP is retarded.

-Awe, we like our dated, flawed game ^_^ How cuuuuute! *pinch cheeks*

[whoopeeragon]

WHMs skill set is solid. So solid i find absolutely no reason to ever go CNJ. the loss of it's job skills is too painful. I can't really say that for any other job. except maybe war and steel cyclone.

I agree in that the WHMs skill is pretty solid, but I do find going onto CNJ for nuking far more substantial. The loss of Regen does hurt, but gaining Sanguine Rite, Thunder, Fire, Fira, Resonance etc. makes it, in my opinion, more viable for nuking rather than White Mage. Especially considering the 30 and 20 second recast timer Stonera and Aerora have.

- What am I researching? The fact that the tooltip was never fixed? Have you researched every ability for tooltip errors? Don't blame the new player for developer laziness. Oh right "actions" = weaponskills.. therefore: action bar = weaponskill bar.. MAKES SO MUCH SENSE! DUH! OBVIOUSLY! Noob!

Oh, calling me a noob? Someone who actively plays as a WHM and knows how to operate it? Dear oh dear, you're just asking for a real PvP now.

How about researching exactly how a WHM performs with the armoury and job system? About how the abilities actually work? About the elements of each attack spell we have? About how stats affect the abilities we have? About abilities we can get from OTHER DISCIPLINES? About the exact role a WHM has in a party in FFXIV?

You comment on Holy consuming all MP, leaving us as dog meat. Well, honey-buns, if you know that they inflict BIND, you have a decent chance of survival by running away. Oh, unless you're dumb enough to stay still and go "OMG I'M GONNA DIE WAHWAHWAH" instead of trying to loss agro.

Regen is almost about instant as can get. 2 second cast timer, darling? If you can't handle even two seconds of casting, I don't see you liking the rest of White Mage, because aside from Benediction and Holy, all other abilities have longer or equal cast times.

You want fancy WS? Sorry, I don't want fancy, I want USEFUL. Which the WHM skill set is. And unless I'm very very mistaken, we get access to Shield Bash. TP skill? Tick. Stun? Oh yea, tick.

Primal weapons are not crap for DD WHM style. You wanted more playability on WHM, yet you ignore the fact that the weapons themselves give WHM an additional flavour of attacks? If you are on about every WHM being the same, then every PLD is the same, every DRG is the same, every BLM is the same, every BRD is the same, every MNK is the same...there's only one set of gear that is the best for a 'specialised' job.

No comment on the 'unable to cast while moving' issue. Beaten to death throughout the whole forums, with even a very very length explanation from our dear Yoshi-P. And if your tank is stupid enough to run ahead while in red HP, no buffs, no regen, and without the WHM ready, your tank deserves to die.

I don't even understand your issue with PvP. PvP interrupt spells? My dear, tell that to BLM, which has 0 defending skills aside from Sanguine Rite. White Mage get their own Protect and Stoneskin (30 second recast, compared to Sanguine Rite, 60 second recast). White Mage have access to Rampart, Featherfoot and Sentinel. White Mage have access to Repose with NO RECAST TIMER. White Mage have access to Stonera for HEAVY TO SLOW YOUR OPPONENTS. White Mage have access to AERO WHICH IS A DoT EFFECT. White Mage have effect to HOLY WHICH CAN BIND YOUR OPPONENT. White Mage have SECOND WIND FOR INSTANT HP REGAIN. Totally useless in PvP? Think again. Also, you are an idiot if you don't switch to classes for PvP, what with the locked traits of jobs compared to the more-expansive armoury system.

Maces? Leave my traditional WHMs alone with their rods, staves, canes and 'short sticks' as you so accurately typed in your topic name.

Oh, and judging by the rest of your posts, you really have no sense of balance between classes, jobs and their abilities do you? You just want to breeze through everything and have everything OPed. Nice. Go back to whatever kindergarten-game you play that lets you do that.

Now excuse my manners, which apparently you have no problem in discarding when you choose to verbally abuse others.

[Duelle]

Regen is almost about instant as can get. 2 second cast timer, darling? If you can't handle even two seconds of casting, I don't see you liking the rest of White Mage, because aside from Benediction and Holy, all other abilities have longer or equal cast times.

As has been mentioned earlier, having no instant casts means you're begging to being interrupted in PvP. Keep in mind the OP, myself and Fusional all have played WoW, and if the devs decide to take from that and spread around interrupt abilities that are not stuns (a la Shield Bash, Pummel, Kick, Earth Shock) anyone with fast reflexes is going to make your life difficult on the front lines. Especially if they choose to implement school lock-out along with interrupts or a global cooldown on spells after getting interrupted.

Additionally, the faster pace of combat makes time lost and time spent that much more valuable. Indeed, 2 seconds is nothing in the current game, but in a fast paced game two seconds is notable.

The OP's choice in words may be extremely poor, but at the least their concerns for PvP are well founded.

[whoopeeragon]

As has been mentioned earlier, having no instant casts means you're begging to being interrupted in PvP. Keep in mind the OP, myself and Fusional all have played WoW, and if the devs decide to take from that and spread around interrupt abilities that are not stuns (a la Shield Bash, Pummel, Kick, Earth Shock) anyone with fast reflexes is going to make your life difficult on the front lines. Especially if they choose to implement school lock-out along with interrupts or a global cooldown on spells after getting interrupted.

Additionally, the faster pace of combat makes time lost and time spent that much more valuable. Indeed, 2 seconds is nothing in the current game, but in a fast paced game two seconds is notable.

The OP's choice in words may be extremely poor, but at the least their concerns for PvP are well founded.

That's true. But you have to consider that the WHM in question won't all be having poor reflexes. With a Stoneskin, Sentinel and Rampart up, getting a 2 second spell off is easy if the WHM itself could get in. I'm not saying that they'll be totally immune (there should never be a need for a total immunity) but making WHM seem helpless in those situations seems rather childish. And as you point out, they made implement other stuff - we don't know. I'm assuming that the OP is referring to PvP in WHM's current state as he hasn't specified elsewhere.

Which is why I go back to classes being PvP. Sanguine Rite would be godly for mage classes considering it gives you back both MP and blocks interruption of spells. Interruption will happen no matter way for any mage class, even melee class, but that's not to say that WHM is totally off.

A bit off-topic, but I do want to point out that details about PvP is too little to make judgement on whether this is viable or not. We don't know about the arena size, we don't know about starting positions, we don't know about whether we can enter buffed or not....and those are just scraping the surface. If, say, arena size is tiny, you can't enter buffed, and you start off kissing one another, then of course, WHM in its current state is going to get blown off the side of the world.

And do forgive my own harsh language in response to the OP. I have no regrets about it, but sometimes, fire works against fire.

[Onisake]

I agree in that the WHMs skill is pretty solid, but I do find going onto CNJ for nuking far more substantial. The loss of Regen does hurt, but gaining Sanguine Rite, Thunder, Fire, Fira, Resonance etc. makes it, in my opinion, more viable for nuking rather than White Mage. Especially considering the 30 and 20 second recast timer Stonera and Aerora have.

You gain Thunder, Necrogenesis, Fire, Dark Seal, Resonance, and Sanguine Rite. Fira is THM only. (are you sure you go CNJ when you're nuking? lol)

You lose PoM, Esuna, Regen, Holy, Benediction.

PoM and Regen are worth more than the 5 spells you gain combined. Sanguine Rite is arguably good for surviving things like Megaflare, but you already have sentinel. and you'd be losing Regen.

Regen+SS trumps necrogenesis. heck, 2 or 3 ticks of regen will give you more HP than you'd ever get from Necrogenesis. It's also cheaper. the interupt bonus is nice, and arguably the best thing about the ability. but if you need that you're probaby SoL anyway because SS is down. Chameleon is more useful, as you can dump a ton of enmity and just not get hit.

Thunder and Fire will do reduced damage due to you can't combo them so they are really filler while you're waiting on CDs of stonera/aerora. your mp is better spent casting Regen or Stoneskin on someone. Or just getting some MP back by not doing anything.

Dark Seal has too long a CD to be useful. stone's debuff also kind of overlaps with it. (provided you can get it to land)

Resonance's main utility is so you can apply a movement debuff before they get to you. WHM doesn't have one (except stonera, and they'll be on top of you before you can Resonance+stone => stonera) so this isn't that useful either.

I focus on enhancing potency. the other whm in my party almost always has higher healing potency, and lower enhancing than me, so i typically let them cure bomb. I keep cleric stance up and rotate:

stone => aero => Aerora => stone => Stonera => regen/SS => Blissful => stone => aero => aerora => stone => Stonera => prism => SS/Regen => Blissful + second wind => Shroud of saints => repeat

Cure when needed. stop attacking to buff when needed. Don't nuke if i'm under 800 or so mp.

I'd argue that it's more viable. I don't think it gives you that many more options. but it's certainly an option and different than normal. Regen is just too powerful to give up IMO.

[Mujen]

- Well I was making a sarcastic comment that you would be saying to me: " MAKES SO MUCH SENSE! DUH! OBVIOUSLY! Noob!" It's sarcastic because the tooltip says "ability" yet it really needs to say is "weaponskill". So that clear's that up.. I've only been playing the game a month, you more than likely have been more, so technically i'd be the "noob."
- Btw I had no idea WHM could use shield bash, but In all fairness it's going to be very limiting, so it's rly not that useful maybe once in a blue moon. I would not consider Shield Bash a WS by classic definition, moreso of an ability.. BUT (sarcasm here) since ability = weaponskill.. I guess it would be.. ha ha ha! (obvious sarcasm!).
- Hexastrike, unless I was mistaken was a Mace skill, AMIRITE, hater?! Besides, I could bitch about the overall lack in this game, but I choose WHM as the shorter end of the stick. Yes lots of changes will be made, but if this whm lack trend occurs again, it'll be sad face all over again... In all fairness I think every class needs access to more weapon variety & equipment, period. I'm hoping 2.0 will resolve a lot of issues.

Officially it is because people wanted something to break a started cast.

- I'm gonna chalk it upto server-communication lag but you can start casting Cure, have to suddenly move and it still goes off, your character will stop for cast animation.. and in my case.. die to Ifrit's Eruption move. So moving currently doesn't stop casts efficiently & can cause deaths (we'll chalk it upto lag for now).

I don't even understand your issue with PvP. PvP interrupt spells? My dear, tell that to BLM, which has 0 defending skills aside from Sanguine Rite. White Mage get their own Protect and Stoneskin (30 second recast, compared to Sanguine Rite, 60 second recast). White Mage have access to Rampart, Featherfoot and Sentinel. White Mage have access to Repose with NO RECAST TIMER. White Mage have access to Stonera for HEAVY TO SLOW YOUR OPPONENTS. White Mage have access to AERO WHICH IS A DoT EFFECT. White Mage have effect to HOLY WHICH CAN BIND YOUR OPPONENT. White Mage have SECOND WIND FOR INSTANT HP REGAIN. Totally useless in PvP? Think again. Also, you are an idiot if you don't switch to classes for PvP, what with the locked traits of jobs compared to the more-expansive armoury system.

- For the fact that Holy consumes ALL MP, i'd hope it did something.. I didn't know it binded, but that's because I hardly ever use it, it's rly just for funzies, it's not practical. Yes i've seen the WHM Moogle Burn video, but do you think ppl came up with that as an initial strat or out of boredom? Losing all your MP when you have 0 melee capabilities means you're pretty much done. So Holy is actually a poor argument, it's more of a "why does this skill exist?" If whm had say a Melee weapon that could drain MP on hit, then sure... (and use common sense here "OMG thats OP!".. obviously not enough to get you full in 4 swings)
- Second Wind + "cast animation" = Annoying. Instant skills need to be INSTANT as in... I can run, hit 2nd wind while continuing to run. NOT.. runs.. hits 2nd wind.. STOPS for some weird cast motion.. then continue.. there are no skills you can "kite" with.. and we're not talking casting while moving we're talking like 2nd wind, rampart, sentinel, voke, flash...

[Onisake]

- Well I was making a sarcastic comment that you would be saying to me: " MAKES SO MUCH SENSE! DUH! OBVIOUSLY! Noob!" It's sarcastic because the tooltip says "ability" yet it really needs to say is "weaponskill". So that clear's that up.. I've only been playing the game a month, you more than likely have been more, so technically i'd be the "noob."
- Btw I had no idea WHM could use shield bash, but In all fairness it's going to be very limiting, so it's rly not that useful maybe once in a blue moon. I would not consider Shield Bash a WS by classic definition, moreso of an ability.. BUT (sarcasm here) since ability = weaponskill.. I guess it would be.. ha ha ha! (obvious sarcasm!).
- Hexastrike, unless I was mistaken was a Mace skill, AMIRITE, hater?! Besides, I could bitch about the overall lack in this game, but I choose WHM as the shorter end of the stick. Yes lots of changes will be made, but if this whm lack trend occurs again, it'll be sad face all over again... In all fairness I think every class needs access to more weapon variety & equipment, period. I'm hoping 2.0 will resolve a lot of issues.

Wait. is this a discussion or a pissing contest? because now i'm confused. >.>;;

- I'm gonna chalk it upto server-communication lag but you can start casting Cure, have to suddenly move and it still goes off, your character will stop for cast animation.. and in my case.. die to Ifrit's Eruption move. So moving currently doesn't stop casts efficiently & can cause deaths (we'll chalk it upto lag for now).

This has killed me a couple times too. However I just adjusted my behavior. Ifrit has a very specific pattern when he uses special attacks. when he's getting close to using one i make sure i'm not casting. easy. all other fights are equally predictable.

- For the fact that Holy consumes ALL MP, i'd hope it did something.. I didn't know it binded, but that's because I hardly ever use it, it's rly just for funzies, it's not practical.

Holy is a very situation spell. I agree it's rather lackluster, and probably the only spell in WHMs kit i would change.

I currently picture Holy as an 'Oh F___' button. kind of like benediction is an 'Oh F___' button, but holy has a lower CD. considering it is an 'instant' cast and does considerable damage I think the spell is fine for what it is. if you have blissful charged and shroud up the mp consumption isn't an issue. even less so if you have an ether of somesort on you.

I've found it useful in a couple of situations. I've had WAR's collusion me while i hit holy on a group of mobs so he can get a lot of hate at the start of the fight. it does considerably more than flare, and does it far quicker. so Holy is not completely useless, you just have to put a bit more effort into making it useful.

Yes i've seen the WHM Moogle Burn video, but do you think ppl came up with that as an initial strat or out of boredom? Losing all your MP when you have 0 melee capabilities means you're pretty much done.

see above. Blissful+shroud gets you a lot of mp back.

So Holy is actually a poor argument, it's more of a "why does this skill exist?" If whm had say a Melee weapon that could drain MP on hit, then sure... (and use common sense here "OMG thats OP!".. obviously not enough to get you full in 4 swings)

Again, it's not that intuitive of a spell. you have to put forth some effort to make it useful. kind of like resonance.

- Second Wind + "cast animation" = Annoying. Instant skills need to be INSTANT as in... I can run, hit 2nd wind while continuing to run. NOT.. runs.. hits 2nd wind.. STOPS for some weird cast motion.. then continue.. there are no skills you can "kite" with.. and we're not talking casting while moving we're talking like 2nd wind, rampart, sentinel, voke, flash...

why are you kiting on whm? why do you have voke on whm? on second thought, how did you even equip voke on whm?

if you have hate as whm you shoudl do one of three things

1) do nothing. let tank get hate back or die to reset your hate. do not use mp, you will need it as soon as you are rez'd. healing yourself gives you more hate and wastes your mp.
2) run towards the tank and do 1 or 3 once you are close to him.
3) pop shroud in attempt to dump enough hate long enough for tank to secure threshold again.if this fails see 1

[Duelle]

That's true. But you have to consider that the WHM in question won't all be having poor reflexes. With a Stoneskin, Sentinel and Rampart up, getting a 2 second spell off is easy if the WHM itself could get in. I'm not saying that they'll be totally immune (there should never be a need for a total immunity) but making WHM seem helpless in those situations seems rather childish.

Stoneskin has a cast time, and knowing what I know about interrupts, they ignore damage mitigation spells and barriers.

Hypothetically speaking, if we had a WHM vs a THF, and the THF had an on-demand stun called Groin Kick and an ability called Cheap Shot that did no damage but interrupted spell casting, you'd be hard pressed to get spells out between getting interrupted and stunned by said THF. Sure, 1 vs 1 may not mean much, but in a group situation it is quite possible for that THF to be the bane of your existence if you're trying to get out life-saving cures but can't.

Which is why I go back to classes being PvP. Sanguine Rite would be godly for mage classes considering it gives you back both MP and blocks interruption of spells. Interruption will happen no matter way for any mage class, even melee class, but that's not to say that WHM is totally off.

I personally can't see them keeping stuff like Sanguine Rite as is. Additionally, I can't see them keeping the "damage taken interrupts spells" mechanic either, because then ranged classes like archers and musketeers would be incredibly effective at making mages miserable.

I agree that we should ask for details on PvP balancing and await for more information, though.

[Mujen]

Wait. is this a discussion or a pissing contest? because now i'm confused. >.>;;

-lol yeah sorry...

why are you kiting on whm? why do you have voke on whm? on second thought, how did you even equip voke on whm?

- Just meant in general, they all make you stop moving & yeah you're right about the ifrit/predictable fight thing but I'm not too thrilled with having to learn to deal with dated/laggy system in 2012 after playing other games where it wasn't that way, but that's hopefully where 2.0 comes in so, yay for that! lots of expectations for 2.0!

[whoopeeragon]

You gain Thunder, Necrogenesis, Fire, Dark Seal, Resonance, and Sanguine Rite. Fira is THM only. (are you sure you go CNJ when you're nuking? lol)

You lose PoM, Esuna, Regen, Holy, Benediction.

PoM and Regen are worth more than the 5 spells you gain combined. Sanguine Rite is arguably good for surviving things like Megaflare, but you already have sentinel. and you'd be losing Regen.

Regen+SS trumps necrogenesis. heck, 2 or 3 ticks of regen will give you more HP than you'd ever get from Necrogenesis. It's also cheaper. the interupt bonus is nice, and arguably the best thing about the ability. but if you need that you're probaby SoL anyway because SS is down. Chameleon is more useful, as you can dump a ton of enmity and just not get hit.

Thunder and Fire will do reduced damage due to you can't combo them so they are really filler while you're waiting on CDs of stonera/aerora. your mp is better spent casting Regen or Stoneskin on someone. Or just getting some MP back by not doing anything.

Dark Seal has too long a CD to be useful. stone's debuff also kind of overlaps with it. (provided you can get it to land)

Resonance's main utility is so you can apply a movement debuff before they get to you. WHM doesn't have one (except stonera, and they'll be on top of you before you can Resonance+stone => stonera) so this isn't that useful either.

I focus on enhancing potency. the other whm in my party almost always has higher healing potency, and lower enhancing than me, so i typically let them cure bomb. I keep cleric stance up and rotate:

stone => aero => Aerora => stone => Stonera => regen/SS => Blissful => stone => aero => aerora => stone => Stonera => prism => SS/Regen => Blissful + second wind => Shroud of saints => repeat

Cure when needed. stop attacking to buff when needed. Don't nuke if i'm under 800 or so mp.

I'd argue that it's more viable. I don't think it gives you that many more options. but it's certainly an option and different than normal. Regen is just too powerful to give up IMO.

Actually, Fira is a cross-class ability, haha. It's the only second tier spell that you can cross class to any of the other classes.

Also, and maybe I should have mentioned this, but I use Conjurer when either solo or duo-ing. If I get a party of 4 or more, I always use White Mage because there would be a specialised DD in there somewhere.

Yea, I'm on my conjurer, and the abilities I have are Thunder, Fire, Fira, Sanguine Rite, Necrogenesis, Chameleon, Sentinel, Rampart, Featherfoot and Second Wind. The lack of Regen does hurt, but I consider the extra damage output overcomes that, especially if solo or duoing. I consider it the 'offence is the defence' option when it comes to Conjurer.

Dark Seal is generally not as good an ability for the Conjurer discipline, because they naturally have high MND for magic accuracy anyhow. Resonance, however, I find useful to pull mobs in or for sleeping agro mobs that are further away. And to confirm, I'm putting this in a perspective of a small party or solo.

Oh, enhancement potency is generally overlooked - I'm trying to cap mine atm. I'm still a good dozen or so points short from the cap, but Regen is deadly useful, I understand that. But as solo, I find the gain of more nukes generally having more usability in the case of conjurer.

(Also, it gives me the chance to flaunt off my vanya set and alkalurops. I should mention that the vanya set also gives a great deal of nuking benefits that further enhance conjurer as a more nuking-discipline rather than WHM.)

So I'm not saying you're wrong. But rather that I have my own reasons for choosing conjurer over white mage for nuking in small parties or solo.

Stoneskin has a cast time, and knowing what I know about interrupts, they ignore damage mitigation spells and barriers.

Hypothetically speaking, if we had a WHM vs a THF, and the THF had an on-demand stun called Groin Kick and an ability called Cheap Shot that did no damage but interrupted spell casting, you'd be hard pressed to get spells out between getting interrupted and stunned by said THF. Sure, 1 vs 1 may not mean much, but in a group situation it is quite possible for that THF to be the bane of your existence if you're trying to get out life-saving cures but can't.

As far as I'm aware, as long as Stoneskin is up, you ignore all types of damage - the only interruption to reach you would be Sleep. Easy way to notice is getting attacked while having stoneskin up - your character doesn't flinch at all.

Ah, but in PvP group situations, you'll have a tank, preferably a Paladin, that can cover your White Mage and soak up all that damage. I'm assuming that it would also prevent statuses that link to those attacks to reach the White Mage. But as your last paragraph stated, this is all speculation and assumption, so we should wait for more details before discussing.